Vision Battlesword [00:00:00]:
Devon Anderson, welcome to Sacred Conversations. How are you doing today?

Devon Anderson [00:00:03]:
I'm doing great, vision. Thanks for having me. It's always great to talk to you.

Vision Battlesword [00:00:07]:
Yeah, you too. Yeah. I'm looking forward to our exploration today. No pun intended. We always do an exploration, I think, in these conversations, but today this is going to be a special one. But I won't ruin the punchline for now. I just want to ask you to introduce yourself. Who are you, Devon?

Devon Anderson [00:00:23]:
Well, I'm Devon Anderson. I'm living in Los Angeles, California and I consider myself a very curious person. And the last year I've been spending year plus actually since I've stopped officially working, I've been spending a lot of time exploring different things and following my curiosities. Which brings us to our topic today, but a little bit more about me. I live in the Hollywood Hills with my little bulldog mix, Missy, and I love hiking, nature, wildlife, travel, learning, any type of personal development. And yeah, I think that about sums it up.

Vision Battlesword [00:01:02]:
Beautiful. Well, it's great to talk to you today. And so when we were chatting a little while ago and setting this up, this conversation, we came up with a topic which was very on theme for just kind of like what you just said, what's going on for you and your life right now, which just seems super exciting for me as a just a big idea to explore, no pun intended, which is the whole idea of exploration itself. Does that still sound like a fun talk you'd like to have today?

Devon Anderson [00:01:31]:
It does.

Vision Battlesword [00:01:32]:
Well, then I'll start with my usual kind of opening thought, which is what is exploration?

Devon Anderson [00:01:39]:
Is that for you to answer or for me to answer?

Vision Battlesword [00:01:42]:
Well, it's my first question to you, but I think we'll both explore it.

Devon Anderson [00:01:45]:
Yeah. So for me it's following your curiosity, trying to learn and really find meaning in the unknown.

Vision Battlesword [00:01:55]:
Hmm. Interesting to find meaning in the unknown. I wonder. Yeah. Does, does the concept of exploration inherently require venturing into the unknown? Is that kind of fundamental to the whole concept of it itself? Are we always kind of moving into a place where new knowledge will be revealed or where we can find it?

Devon Anderson [00:02:20]:
I think potentially. Right. Like when I think of exploration, you know, going back to the geographic explorations we learned about in school, it was about venturing out into the unknown. You know, I think sometimes they had a general goal or hope of what they would find, but it's never a guarantee. Right. So you have to take the risk that it's just about stepping out into the unknown. And, you know, you don't know that you'll get out of it what you planned out of it. And certainly in the geographical explorations of the past, there was no guarantee that you even get back to where you started.

Vision Battlesword [00:02:56]:
Huh? Yeah, that's true.

Devon Anderson [00:02:58]:
It's an adventure in that respect.

Vision Battlesword [00:03:00]:
Yeah, I guess. Is that a fundamental requirement of exploration? Do you have to be going somewhere new or somewhere that you've never been before in order to for it to be considered exploring?

Devon Anderson [00:03:14]:
I think so, but not really in a concrete sense. Right. Like I think you have to be going either mentally to a place you haven't gone or at least looking at it through a different lens to be considered exploratory. I mean, you could, you could visit a place you've been before. Right. So for example, in December I went to Japan for the first time in 20 years. And it's not like I hadn't been there before, but it was a very different experience just given the length of time and that I'm a different person in this phase of my life.

Vision Battlesword [00:03:48]:
Right, right. Yeah. That's very interesting. So you can re explore something that you've already explored before or a place or a space or even like maybe a mental construct that is already familiar to you. You can nonetheless go back and explore it again or with fresh eyes. What do you think is the purpose of exploration? You said first of all discovery, right? Kind of open ended discovery. Like we're going to go out into the unknown and see what we find and there's no guarantees, there's even maybe no guarantee even of returning to where we started. But what do you think is the biggest reason why people would or should just explore?

Devon Anderson [00:04:35]:
Well, for me, like I said, I'm driven by curiosity and I love learning, I love new experiences and I love novelty. So for me I feel like there's something in that. I think we're all different and I think some people are more naturally adventurous and exploratory than others. But for me, I like to really just venture out and find new things. Sometimes it's with more of a plan in mind and maybe sometimes not. I think sometimes there's a purpose. Right. And I can come back to an example for that.

Devon Anderson [00:05:14]:
But I think other times it's just more of a general sense of I'm somebody that's very driven by curiosity and learning and novelty and new experiences. So sometimes it's just a quest for fun.

Vision Battlesword [00:05:28]:
Okay, so exploration in general is a good way to learn, Is that what you say?

Devon Anderson [00:05:34]:
I think so. I think it's good for our brains. I'm kind of A neuroscience geek. I love all the neuroscience podcasts, and they say that when we have new experiences, we create more neuroplasticity and we expand our brains in a way. And I like to think that that's true.

Vision Battlesword [00:05:51]:
Right. Well, when you start talking neuroscience now, you're talking nerdy to me, and I kind of. I kind of get excited, so I'd love to follow that trail a little bit. Yeah. So exploration in physical, spiritual, psychological space can be fun just in its own right, from a sake of satisfying our curiosity or satisfying our desire to. To experience something new. But also it could create neuroplasticity, which literally expands physically and metaphorically the space of our brain. Meaning there's now more, there's more to explore, and there's more to experience.

Vision Battlesword [00:06:33]:
We're enhancing, we're augmenting even our capability for perception and experience just by exploring. Is that right?

Devon Anderson [00:06:42]:
I think so. Isn't that so cool?

Vision Battlesword [00:06:44]:
I think so, yeah. And personally, I get a little bit of a thrill from it, because when you talk about going into the unknown, which I agree, I think there's a big part of the concept of exploration which has to do with intentionally putting oneself into a space where, like you say, things are new, different, or uncertain. I think there's something there can be very thrilling or exciting about that because we can't predict what's going to happen or we can't predict what we're going to find. Do you get excited by exploration?

Devon Anderson [00:07:20]:
Yes, very much so. And it's funny, when you said that, it made me think of, you know, I've discovered psychedelics in the last few years, as, you know. And one of the things I love about it is I feel like I can go on an adventure in my mind. And I've always been somebody that's physically adventurous. I love traveling to different places and doing new things. You know, going to New Zealand and skydiving or going to Cape Town and, you know, diving with the Great White Cage dive or whatever. But I never thought that I could go on an adventure in my mind in such a profound way. So that's been a lot of fun.

Vision Battlesword [00:07:59]:
Yeah. It's really interesting when we talk about the phrase psychonaut, which is a word that I think was coined sometime in the mid 20th century to describe a comparison to an astronaut, one who physically travels into the unknown realm of space, and there's this unknown realm of something, a dimension of something of reality that we can access without physically traveling anywhere, but which is so similar. It seems as real as waking life, but yet also surreal in a completely alien, in a completely foreign way. What do you think that is? What do you think that realm is that we go into when we explore the psychedelic space?

Devon Anderson [00:08:48]:
I don't know that I could define the realm, but I could tell you that for me it almost fears. Feels spiritual. Like one of the things I love most is scuba diving. And it's because kind of like you said, with space, like you feel like you're in a different world and you're down there and you can't really communicate. You can't hear the people you came with. All you can do is just kind of turn your head in different directions and look and see what you can see and look around, look along the reefs that are teeming with life and these tiny little eels and animals kind of poking out of. Seemingly poking out of every crevice sometimes. And it's just.

Devon Anderson [00:09:28]:
It feels surreal in a way. But yeah, I don't know how I would define other realms.

Vision Battlesword [00:09:33]:
Do you think when we're exploring inwardly like that, do you think that the space, so called, that we go into is just inside of our own minds? Or do you think that it's a different dimension of reality that we can access through our mind?

Devon Anderson [00:09:54]:
I do think there's an element of magic to it. And it's funny because, like when I started, so, I mean, I did mushrooms for the first time a little over three years ago, so. And at that time I would consider myself born borderline atheist. Like I always wanted to believe that there was more going on, but I never felt like I saw strong evidence for it. And going down that path and the different experiences it's led me to has definitely made me think that there's more going on in terms of a spiritual realm. Right. And I feel like when we're in those, when that, when we're in those experiences with. Doesn't have to be psychedelics, sometimes it can be other things that, that get us in a specific sort of state.

Devon Anderson [00:10:41]:
Right. But I think it gets us in a place where we're able to kind of access a little bit of that magic in a way. Now I don't, I don't know how it works or why or I don't pretend to, but I find it very interesting. What do you think?

Vision Battlesword [00:10:57]:
Boy, yeah, my, my thinking on that whole question has expanded a lot in the last six several years. I'd say probably six, seven, eight years for sure. I think even though I had a spiritual experience and a spiritual practice in my early to mid-20s, I had a Spiritual awakening, which began with a mushroom journey. And since then I've had a spiritual practice and an experience. But I think I was still thinking about psychedelic experiences as being entirely internal and entirely mental. You know, the interaction of pharmacology with chemistry with psychology, et cetera. However, I think that after some experiences that I've had within the last five years, I've begun to consider the possibility. Not just consider, I've begun to reframe my worldview with the idea that there are multiple layered dimensions of reality that are kind of overlapping and coexisting and that we are more complex creatures beings than what the sort of traditional, scientific, Western materialist perspective would suggest.

Vision Battlesword [00:12:22]:
And I think that we are having experiences at multiple different levels which we can have more or less awareness of, or we can direct our attention or our focus into those different levels to a greater or lesser degree. And I think that psychedelics, as these chemical compounds that interact with our physical being, are also interacting with us in other ways that the scientific, materialist, empirical, measurement based understanding of reality just can't detect. Or at least it's not configured to even look for, really. And so, yeah, I imagine that there are realms and dimensions of reality which we sometimes call energetic, which we sometimes call spiritual. But there's no doubt that quantum physics, quantum mechanics and mathematics have uncovered a deep, deep weirdness to the universe that even mathematicians, physicists and scientists can't explain and don't even try. Or they may explain it in ways that actually sound very mystical, even while being wrapped in the trappings of kind of technical sounding language. So to me there's no contradiction between the idea that we, we can be having a very personal internal mental experience, changing our perception internally from a subjective perspective, and also that it changes our interaction with other realms or fields and that we experience and that we extend through these dimensions as well.

Devon Anderson [00:14:08]:
No, I think you're right. You have such an articulate way of putting things. But, but I think that makes sense to me. I've definitely seen things that have been kind of miraculous and you couldn't really explain any other way. And I've experienced things that, you know, I couldn't really explain if I wanted to. I would never have words for.

Vision Battlesword [00:14:30]:
What kind of things have you experienced that you can't explain?

Devon Anderson [00:14:34]:
Well, I've just like in Group Journeys, for example, I've seen interactions between people where someone's almost channeling for somebody else or somebody knows something about somebody else that can't be explained. I've seen plenty of examples of that. And One more recent example, which was very surprising to me, probably not to other people that have been more in this space for a long time. But I did this beautiful end of the year psychedelic ceremony down here in Malibu and it was my first time with this group. And I know I'm sensitive to medicine, so I was talking to the shaman about if I should start with a lighter dose. And they were like, well, it's up to you. And I was like, I'll just start with a lighter dose. So she gave me like a three quarter dose and it was still very strong for me.

Devon Anderson [00:15:24]:
It was, you know, a new medicine, a new environment, and I kind of fought through it. And then they invite people up for the second dose and of course I'm just silently like, oh no thank you, I'm good right now. And then I got a second dose anyway, just being in the room, right? And I never would have thought that would happen. And I mean at the time I was like actually kind of angry about it. I was like, wait, I didn't consent to this, right? Like I drank the first cup, that's on me. But there, there I was fighting it out as if I drank again. So an energetic dose, I guess. Right? But, but I don't know.

Devon Anderson [00:16:00]:
I used to be a very black and white thinker, I used to be very science oriented. And the more I've opened my mind the last few years, the more I have to agree there's a lot more going on here than we'll ever understand.

Vision Battlesword [00:16:14]:
Well, how do you explain that? What does that even mean, an energetic dose? Or like how do you wrap your mind around that experience that you had and what happened to you where other people in a room took medicine and used seem to have felt it with them or for them? What is, what is going on there?

Devon Anderson [00:16:33]:
Well, you know, I think it's an energy thing. And personally I don't think I'm super sensitive to energy. I mean, a couple years ago I always thought it was kind of like woo, woo. And just like an excuse people use when they're like, oh, I don't like that person's energy. It's kind of like, well, what have they done to you? You know, is this just like you being shitty or something? I think I'm just not as sensitive to it. But I think that, you know, when you get put into states where something like that happens, it really does make me go, oh no, yeah, there is energy here. I can, you know, if you're with somebody that's having a bad day or in A bad mood or that's always a downer, Right. That can bring your energy down.

Devon Anderson [00:17:14]:
But I think in a more direct way it's like, no, I'm actually absorbing some of what they took just from sitting next to them. And that's probably going on all the time. Right. So it's definitely made me think more about, you know, being careful about who you're around and what situations you're in and how often. Because it really is something. I think the state of those around us can be absorbed to us by us to a degree. I'm curious, like how you would explain that. You seem to have a better way with words than I do on this stuff.

Vision Battlesword [00:17:46]:
Interestingly enough, I had a whole conversation where the topic was energy with Rosemary Wild a few months back and we explored a lot of that point you brought up about. Well, when somebody says, oh, I don't like your energy or whatever, what are we really talking about? Are we really saying, is this really just kind of like a new age passive aggressive way of saying I'm feeling some emotions or I'm feeling triggered by your behavior or I don't like your attitude? Like different things we might have used to say before now we kind of roll it up into this concept of energy. And so I like to get more crisp and clear and precise with the language, as I'm sure you know about me. And so for me, I think there's a few different things going on. I think one of them is regular old empathy, meaning I think we can pick up and sense from other people what their inner state is, is from body language and tone of voice and other kinds of regular physical cues. I think even smells, I think even pheromones can communicate to us subconsciously. Maybe even we don't know how we're detecting what we're detecting. But somehow or other, based on how people are feeling and what they're thinking, they are communicating that to us non verbally.

Vision Battlesword [00:19:06]:
But I think it could still be physical. Physical communication that's happening through chemistry, sound, visual cues and so forth. But I also think there's something more than that. And I think that the model that I kind of have in mind of this sort of pancake layers of reality includes at the bottom layer what's called the gross, which is all of the physical stuff, actual atoms and molecules and rocks and creatures, things that get up and move around on their own. But all the physical stuff that's bumping up against each other is kind of referred to as the gross dimension. Not gross meaning disgusting, but Just gross meaning, like raw form. And then at the top of the pancake is what's called the causal. The causal layer or dimension is that reunification with the oneness of all the.

Vision Battlesword [00:20:04]:
The universal field, God, source, whatever label you want to put on it. I think we all kind of, or I think the vast majority of us acknowledge that there is this kind of non, dual experience that sometimes we get a peek into and that we get a taste of somehow through different means. Whether it be could be a religious or a spiritual experience, it could be a psychedelic experience. It could happen in deep meditation or contemplation. It could happen during moments of like very, very profound connection with another person, you know, intimately, sexually in the love space can give us a taste or a glimpse of this whole idea of like, oh, yeah, we are all kind of actually connected and we are all kind of part of the same thing. Everything in between those two layers, the gross, you know, physical stuff and the causal unified spiritual experience are the subtle realms. And the subtle realms are what we refer to as the energetics. And there's several of them, four, that are typically part of the integral model.

Vision Battlesword [00:21:10]:
And I think these represent different types of energy, which is like. I use that word literally to mean energy. In the same way that heat is energy, or light or electricity are forms of energy. I think that there are forms of energy which create fields that are emanating from our bodies and that extend from our bodies to various distances, some of which could be very, very vast planet wide or maybe even beyond. And I think that this is how these other fields that we don't typically measure or acknowledge, although I think science is catching up. And I think that there are now devices and machines and technologies that can even perhaps detect and read auras or certainly the magnetic field of the human body, which may be synonymous with an aura, or it may be synonymous with an etheric field or an astral field or a psychic field or whatever these layers are. I think these are like when we talk about a sixth sense. I think these are our sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth senses.

Vision Battlesword [00:22:20]:
I think that we may have and other animals and creatures may have the equipment internally in our biology to actually perceive and communicate through these fields. And I think that's what's happening. I think that's part at least, of what's happening when we come into proximity with someone and all of a sudden we get a gut reaction to them. That may be our etheric fields entangling and interacting with each other and communicating something below the level of our conscious awareness. But nonetheless, A part of our overall perceptual system. And I think that these fields can get similarly activated or we can get in tune with these different frequencies. Let's say that we can, like, rotate the radio dial on our transmitter, so to speak, and when we enter psychedelic states as well. What do you think?

Devon Anderson [00:23:16]:
Yeah, I mean, I think the way that you laid it out definitely seems like it could make sense, but I would say it's like. At least from my experience with that ayahuasca, it was like it wasn't just projection or sensing. It was more like I was absorbing the chemical compound through others, potentially. Right. Which is not something that I ever would have really thought was possible.

Vision Battlesword [00:23:41]:
Now, how do you think that is possible? Because I have another theory about that, actually. So I'm glad you drew that distinction. But how in your mind could it be possible that if other people in the same room with you took medicine that it would have gotten physically into your body?

Devon Anderson [00:23:58]:
I mean, I think there's two possibilities that led to the same thing. Either it's more the empathetic that you talked about, and I somehow just absorbed that and start, you know, went right back into the visions and the sensations and all of that, or there was some way that, like, the compound physically reached me. But I don't know. I mean, if I try to. If I try to logic it, which maybe I shouldn't, because like I said, I don't know that we'll ever understand any of this stuff completely. I almost feel like the first one's more possible because even if I did some somehow absorb the compound in some way, you would think it would be such a small amount that it wouldn't cause a whole dose to come back on, which is what happened or how I perceived it.

Vision Battlesword [00:24:44]:
Do you think that people could be breathing it out or. Or sweating it out and that it's.

Devon Anderson [00:24:51]:
That's kind of what I thought. Like some droplets of it somehow. But even then I would think it would be such a small amount, it wouldn't be enough to. It would be like a microdose. Right. If I was physically absorbing it, I.

Vision Battlesword [00:25:02]:
Would think, well, who knows? So I would love to share with you my theory, which is based on an experience I had which was very, very similar. A few years ago, I was at a gathering where the group. Let's just say it wasn't a ceremony or anything highly intentional, but the group in general was. Was partaking of a mixture of various substances, many of them, which I feel certain were psychedelic. And at this particular gathering, which is Unlike most that I would ever attend. In fact, I think I probably would not attend a gathering anymore, generally speaking, where alcohol was also a part of the container. In this particular case, it was. So there was alcohol being served along with whatever else being, you know, folks had brought with them.

Vision Battlesword [00:25:53]:
Oh, no, exactly. It's. I mean, it was a party. It wasn't like. It wasn't like a.

Devon Anderson [00:25:59]:
No, I get it, I get it. Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:26:01]:
But. But in general, this is not something I would choose to. This is not a type of environment I would choose to put myself in. And I wasn't really expecting it so much, but it's. It just turned out to be that's what it was. So at any rate, I had an experience where, much like you, I started feeling very strongly that I was picking up other people's psychedelic experience, let's just say. And it was very uncomfortable and very unwelcome. And I had the same kind of reaction that you did, which was like, almost to feel like my consent had been violated in a sort of way and I had to leave.

Vision Battlesword [00:26:43]:
I got out of there and it took a while, but I eventually kind of felt normal again. And that was a very shocking experience for me. And I really had to sit and break it down and try to logic it out, to use your language, like, what happened? And I came up with an idea which is, I wonder. So alcohol is used as a carrier for scents, right? We like a cologne or a perfume may be based in alcohol and other things that we may use that for.

Devon Anderson [00:27:17]:
Because also all of those tinctures that they make include alcohol. Right? Because it's like a delivery mechanism, right?

Vision Battlesword [00:27:24]:
It's a preservative and it's a delivery mechanism in certain different ways. Correct. So I was just thinking about the nature of alcohol to evaporate. And that's like one of the, you know, that's kind of one of the things, the key things that it's known for, if you put some alcohol on your hands or anything else, within a few seconds they'll be completely dry, unlike if you wet them with water, because it just evaporates and goes into the air. And so it occurred to me, I was like, oh, my goodness. I wonder if in a hot, crowded room packed full of people who are. Whose bodies contain a mixture of various highly potent, meaning very low dose required type of psychoactive or psychedelic substances and alcohol sweating. I wonder if it's possible that there was like a shared chemical reaction happening where everyone's.

Vision Battlesword [00:28:32]:
Everything is mixing in the atmosphere of this enclosed space. And everyone is kind of breathing out and then breathing in an average of the, you know, the mind state of the. Of the room. Of the entire room. Because the. You said it only takes a little. Or rather you said you could only get a little bit. Right.

Vision Battlesword [00:28:53]:
That way. But it occurs to me that you only need sometimes a little, little bit, you know, I mean, some of these things are measured in certainly milligrams, even micrograms. So I just wonder if that's possible. I wonder if anyone's ever explored that idea or experimented with that idea of, like, gosh, is it possible for people to transfer a psychoactive substance through their perspiration or through their breath, and especially if alcohol could participate as a carrier.

Devon Anderson [00:29:25]:
Hmm, that's very interesting. It's interesting. It's also hard to kind of tease that out because this has not happened to me personally so much or not. Not in a very specific, obvious way. But, you know, I hear a lot of people say that, like, for instance, they don't like doing group journeys because they. They feel like they see other people's stuff. I don't know if you've ever had that experience? I haven't had that so directly, but, you know, I have. I have friends that have done that.

Devon Anderson [00:29:53]:
And I've had people, you know, ask me if I've had certain types of experiences or trauma, and they'll say that, yeah, they saw it because they were next to me or whatever. And so how would you. How would you know which is which? I mean, I think it's possible that there's lots of ways for transmitting stuff that we don't understand, you know?

Vision Battlesword [00:30:11]:
Right, right. Yeah, that's. That's. That's exactly. That's a great point, because I think there's so many different levels that things can be happening, and maybe the physical level is actually one of them. And then maybe also, like to your point, there's an emotional level where it's. You know, I don't want to say merely because it. I don't want to diminish the power of the experience, but it could be the case that your mind is recreating an experience based on what you're witnessing.

Vision Battlesword [00:30:41]:
The power of the mind to create its own experience or its own reality, I think, shouldn't be understated in the sense that it could be that nothing is necessarily being transferred or transmitted through energy or through physical space. But your own psychological connection to a person could be causing you to create an experience internally, whether you're intending to do that or not.

Devon Anderson [00:31:06]:
So I do think a healthy dose of skepticism. You know, I consider myself a skeptic in many ways as well. And, you know, if we were having this conversation four or five years ago, I would be a lot more still on that side of the spectrum. It's just where my life experiences has brought me since then. But I do think that there's a lot of people that really just, you know, and maybe I was like this to some degree in the past, are just more, you know, I'll believe what I can see. And I think in a way that they. That they have more comfort with that, because if everything can be explained scientifically, there's more of this illusion of control of our environment and what's going on. Right.

Devon Anderson [00:31:48]:
Whereas if we admit that there's things that we don't understand, that brings a lot more possibility. And I lean more towards excitement with that. But I think a lot of people see that as scary. Right. In some sort of way.

Vision Battlesword [00:32:03]:
Right. If the world is much more mysterious than what I've been told or what I've. What I'd like to believe, then that introduces an element of unpredictability or uncertainty. Or there's things that I just simply can't control. There's things that I can't even comprehend, and that's terrifying. Or could be. Yeah.

Devon Anderson [00:32:28]:
Right, Right. It's like. It's like kids being afraid of the dark or. You know what I mean? It's like. I think there's a lot of people that get this illusion of control by feeling like they can explain the environment in the world around them. And once we admit that that's not the case.

Vision Battlesword [00:32:43]:
Yeah. You know, it's interesting you brought that up about being afraid of the dark. Why are kids afraid of the dark?

Devon Anderson [00:32:50]:
I think because they. Because they have vivid imagines. Right. And it's just kind of like it's that time at night that they're alone or that they feel more alone and, you know, that their kind of mind goes to work. Right. And there's all like these ideas of, I don't know, like that, you know, kids. What is it, like monsters under the bed or something like that? I don't. I don't know exactly.

Devon Anderson [00:33:12]:
I mean, I think the kids have just such a vivid imagination, and when they're alone and when they're falling asleep, they. That can sometimes go in a scarier direction.

Vision Battlesword [00:33:24]:
Are you afraid of the dark?

Devon Anderson [00:33:26]:
No. And I don't. I don't remember well, in general, no. I don't remember myself being very afraid of the Dark as a child. But, you know, I. I slept on my own from a very young age. That might have something to do with it, but am I afraid in the dark in general? No. But, you know, I mean, I live in the Hollywood Hills and there's lots of brush and animals and stuff, and I love that.

Devon Anderson [00:33:48]:
But it's like sometimes when it's dark and I'm taking the trash out late at night and I hear something that sounds big in the bushes next to me, it's like. It's exciting, but it's a little bit scary, right?

Vision Battlesword [00:33:58]:
Yeah. It's interesting you mentioned that, because I was just thinking about that yesterday or the day before, about. I was afraid. I don't know if I was afraid of the dark, but there were places that I became afraid of when I reached a certain age. And I was just kind of reflecting on that recently. Like, I remember when I was very young, I was not afraid, for example, to go in the basement in the house that I grew up in. And then I reached a certain age where I became afraid of the basement or of certain rooms. And then I carried that with me for a long time.

Vision Battlesword [00:34:34]:
Like, I mean, I think well into adulthood. I had a fear of spooky stuff, let's just say. Even if I wouldn't necessarily let on or communicate that to people, that was what was going on for me internally. And I had to really push through resistance a lot of times. And sometimes I didn't. And sometimes I avoided things, places, experiences. And then somehow that shifted for me at some point. And I'm not anymore afraid of, say, sleeping in a new house or other things like that.

Vision Battlesword [00:35:10]:
And I also think that that tracks that change in my level of comfortability with myself wherever I am, tracks with my increasing sensitivity to, let's just say, mysterious phenomena in my environment. I don't know. I guess I'm just sort of putting that down for exploration. Meaning, like, I wonder if there's something that happens for kids that has something to do with what they can perceive and their own perceptual systems coming online and being able to detect things that may be real in some way, even if adults don't necessarily perceive them. I don't know that that's what was happening for me. I don't remember. I was actually going back in my memory, trying to figure it out. Like, did something happen at a certain age that caused me to start to become afraid? I know that there was something in my mind, like you said, monsters under the bed.

Vision Battlesword [00:36:14]:
But I don't know if it's because I ever actually perceived something. I don't know. What do you think about that open mindedness of children to maybe perceive more than we do when our minds become a little bit more conditioned or domesticated?

Devon Anderson [00:36:28]:
I haven't studied that a lot, but I've heard a bit about that from a friend of mine, has a daughter who I think is about 10 now and a couple years ago she was saying like, you know, her kid would see, say that she saw people in her room at night and, and it wasn't, it wasn't anything nefarious, you know, but you know, I mean, I've heard of these things kind of anecdotally and then, you know, I've heard the general theory that like children are more spiritual and they can kind of sense and communicate things more. I haven't studied that a lot, but I also do think, and not to take us too off topic, but I think it somehow it dovetails with like our relationship with fear in our environment. Right. Like, I think the way that we evolved is, you know, we want to be able to kind of scan the horizon and look for threats. Right. And when a place seems dark or cluttered or, you know, in certain situations when we can't really look around us, we might feel less comfortable. But I don't know, there could be other things at play there too. I remember this one time I went horseback riding here in the Hollywood Hills, like near the Hollywood sign.

Devon Anderson [00:37:35]:
They have this stable there. And one of the things that is unpleasant for a lot of people and caused some people to abandon the ride is that the horses naturally want to walk kind of along the edge of the cliff as they walk up. And that's because they're, you know, they're prey animals and they're easily spooked and they want to be able to have the best vision, you know, even if that means walking right along the edge of. Well, you know, the riders obviously are kind of freaking out because the trainers were like, there's just no way to train this out of them. They're going to go on their instincts on this. You know, they're not going to try to make you comfortable with it. But don't worry, they don't want to fall off the edge any more than you do. Like they've got this right.

Devon Anderson [00:38:19]:
So yeah, I don't know. But I also wonder like culturally, like, did you see something? Because when, when you think of childhood and I've never liked scary movies but like as a child I feel like all those scary movies were like, you know, there was always, like, a basement that they were afraid of or, you know, the radiator in the basement or something like that. I can't remember specific movies or whatever, but I feel like that was a theme in a lot of things. Like, there would be certain rooms a child wouldn't want to go into or wouldn't want to be in or even, you know, in childhood, you know, daring other kids to go in the abandoned house or whatever, you know.

Vision Battlesword [00:38:52]:
Yeah, yeah, exactly. That was one of my theories that I was thinking about for myself as well, is like, well, earlier, younger than a certain age, I was like, I kind of had an innocence. And then there's the movies and there's the books. Like, I remember reading books when I was a kid about ghost stories, like, real life ghost stories. I remember one book in particular, and I think there were others as well, where. Yeah, maybe we just prior to a certain exposure of information, we don't know that there's something we ought to be afraid of. And then now, all of a sudden, we get our head filled with these ideas of, ooh, what could be in the dark or what could be in the basement? Or whatever it is. And now all of a sudden, our mind starts playing tricks on us.

Vision Battlesword [00:39:38]:
But also, I'm open to the idea that some people, or maybe all people to a lesser or greater degree, are just perceiving other. Are perceiving different things, you know, that may be manifestations of energy or psychic phenomenon or whatever. Well, I wanted to ask you. You said that you've been in an exploration phase of life, and that kind of is what sparked our whole conversation to begin with. So I really want to kind of dig into that. Like, I think I can relate to it, but I'm also kind of curious to compare notes with you of, like, what is that like to be exploring in life? Or what does it mean?

Devon Anderson [00:40:22]:
Yeah. So the last year plus. So, I mean, I think right before I met you, before I did my power activation, I had gotten laid off after a really long career with a company. And so that kind of kicked off this what do I want to do with my life thing. Right? Like, going back to another big tech company didn't seem appealing. So I ended up taking some time off and just kind of traveling, and that was fun. And then I just started kind of thinking through exploring different paths for myself. But, you know, what do I want to do when I grow up? Like, how do I want to spend my time? Like, how do I want to contribute to this world? You know? What do I want to do? So it's just having that more time.

Devon Anderson [00:41:05]:
It really opened up space for me to just, I should acknowledge that I was in kind of a blessed situation where I'd saved and invested well and so I didn't have to run back and, you know, take the first job I was offered or anything like that. I was interviewing for a little bit, but, you know, I spent more time traveling, volunteering, doing kind of different type of retreats and personal development stuff that I'd always wanted to check out. But you know, when you, when you have a career in an executive career in big tech, you know, it's, it's sometimes hard to take the amount of time off. So I was like, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna kind of explore everything I want to do. So that, you know, before I go back to a job was kind of my thing. And that, that went a lot of different directions. I had a lot of fun, I had a lot of travels that led to going different places, meeting different people, some romantic adventures along the way. That was pretty fun.

Devon Anderson [00:41:59]:
And then later I started really exploring kind of different ways of work. You know, if I don't want to go back to a full time job that's going to, you know, dictate my hours and my time off, you know, what else could I do? And so I was exploring kind of starting my own company and I eventually kind of landed on this path of buying an existing company that already has momentum and cash flow that I can just kind of step into and take forward. So I don't know, there's a lot of. I'm just trying to give a lot to you so we can decide the next direction.

Vision Battlesword [00:42:34]:
But yeah, I think it's a very common experience that a lot of people have. I certainly feel I, like I said, I can relate to just about everything you said, starting with being a tech executive, leaving the corporate world, being in midlife, going on an exploration journey of what do I want to be when I grow up? And yeah, actually sharing that experience with quite a few people as you know, but meaning the finding out what you want to be. So, yeah, I think a lot of people have a kind of midlife transition, don't you think? And it seems like exploration is a big part of that for a lot of people. So I wonder. Well, I guess my first question that I asked was, what was it like? Or what is it like being in that place of exploration? And then also, did you have a process for it? Did you have a methodology? Were you intentionally going out and trying a number of different things to see what felt like it fit. Were you intentionally not having a purpose in mind and just having experiences looping back to the beginning of our conversation just to kind of expand your own frame of reference or your own universe of possibilities? What role does curiosity have in the whole thing? I'm just kind of exploring the idea of exploration itself.

Devon Anderson [00:43:58]:
Yeah. So I did not have a methodology. I just admitting to myself that, no, I don't want to run out and get another job right now. Right. And I think the hardest thing about it has been, is that's, like, scary for me. I've always been such an achiever, and that's been a part of my identity. I don't know, maybe the ego gets involved, but there's part of me that it's like the fear would seep in at times of, like, no, I have to get something right away because if I don't, it's going to be hard for me to get something later or, you know, I'm not going to feel good about myself because I'm just floating through life. Right.

Devon Anderson [00:44:33]:
Like, not. Not really on a plan. And it's a lot of nice. It's nice in some ways. But then, you know, there's. There's parts where there was a lot of tension through that transition as I was, like, struggling with that change. And there was definitely moments of struggle in there because it's like I found myself judging for it. Like, okay, you've been playing around a bit now.

Devon Anderson [00:44:54]:
Now time to get serious about, you know, what's the plan? What are we going to do here? Because I'm not ready to retire. And while I'm lucky, I'm in a place that I can take a lot of time to figure it out. I can't and shouldn't take forever from a financial perspective. So it wasn't planned. A lot of it was just kind of going through and looking at where I was at. Like, there was definitely plan of, if I'm taking this time off, then, yes, I'm going to do all the things that I've kind of always wanted to do that I won't be able to do when I don't have this abundance of time. So from that perspective, I was a little bit strategic, but it wasn't so much planned as it was like, me telling myself, like, I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna jump at something I'm not excited about.

Devon Anderson [00:45:42]:
In some ways, the hardest part was kind of staying the course. There's so many times I'm like, I should just go get another job just so I feel better about myself or so I have something to do every day, or, you know, so I have money coming in. There were times I had to talk myself off that ledge a few times. But where I ultimately landed was that I want to do something different. I want to take more of a chance on myself. And what could that look like? But I think also just being in that mindset of like, following my curiosity and being more open minded has bled into other areas of my life as well. I found myself more open to dating different types of people and having different types of experiences just because I've been more in this space of like, feeling ready to explore and just follow curiosity and taking the pressure off myself of like, yeah, we can try different things. It doesn't mean we're committing to a path.

Vision Battlesword [00:46:36]:
Oh, that was the perfect summary right there at the end. I was, Yeah, I was thinking to myself of how, how to kind of wrap that all up and that. I think that's the statement right there. It sounds like for you, exploration, at least in terms of exploring life, exploring what kind of life to have is really about giving yourself time and space to try a number of different things and just feel into each of them. And also to give yourself permission, even to give yourself a certain kind of support and encouragement, to sort of settle into the discomfort, allow that to be okay. Not let the discomfort push you out of exploration and back into something which may feel safer but which also might feel claustrophobic or like it's too beaten of a path or too worn of a path. Does that sound about right? So it's like exploration for you is almost more about having the patience to let things come in and try and experience them versus going out into the unknown on a quest. That's how I'm hearing it from you.

Vision Battlesword [00:47:51]:
Does that sound right?

Devon Anderson [00:47:52]:
Yeah, I think that's. I wouldn't have really thought of it that way, but I think that resonates.

Vision Battlesword [00:47:58]:
What are your favorite kinds of exploration to do just for your own fun, not for your necessarily trying to find a new life path? But you mentioned originally that exploration for you is tied to curiosity and newness, and that for you is fun or exciting. What, what ways do you explore just from the motivation of your own curiosity?

Devon Anderson [00:48:23]:
Honestly, I think it goes back to, like I said, I'm fairly new to psychedelics. I'm a. I'm a. I'm a very late bloomer there. I walked into my first ceremony at 39 and I started in a ceremony because, you know, growing up I. My parents were drug addicts and alcoholics so I never wanted to touch any sort of what I thought of as a drug or what I was taught in DARE was a drug. So that training that everybody else laughed at, that really worked on me for some reason. But I feel like that has been not only fun, but has brought a lot more to my life and has kicked off.

Devon Anderson [00:48:59]:
I've always been a curious person, but me being a lot more open minded and open to different things and as that's opened me up more, I find myself a lot more open and willing to take risks. Right. Like buying a company is not something I ever thought I would do or starting a company, I just have always been a naturally pretty risk adverse person. That's where I've ended up on this exploration really, really surprises me more than anybody because I just, I've learned to look at things a different way and think at, think about things a different way. You know, why would I not take this chance? Like I've, I've earned it and I've put myself in a comfortable position where I can, can take a big risk and if it doesn't work out, I'll recover and I'll figure it out. But I feel like a lot of that has just been, my mind has just opened up so much since I discovered psychedelics and since I've discovered more of this kind of spiritual thing along the way. And just like looking at things from a more expanded perspective and point of view has really changed my thinking over time.

Vision Battlesword [00:50:07]:
What do you think about sort of the natural human tendency to explore or that drive or that motivation compared to the same or rather another tendency that we have which is more to stay at home, to keep things stable, to stick with what's familiar. Does it feel like those two drives kind of balance each other in a certain way? And like what do you think about that in terms of the value of exploration and the drive to explore and how much we value it as a culture or a society?

Devon Anderson [00:50:42]:
Well, I mean, firstly, I think we're all different. You know, to one person, what seems exciting can feel terrifying to somebody else. Right. But for me, like I feel most alive when I travel, when I'm having new experiences, when I'm experiencing new cultures and sights and sounds and ideas. It really makes me feel the most alive. I have a lot of friends that are true digital nomads and they're like, I would never want to buy a house, I would never want to be Tied down somewhere. And I can understand that. I don't know.

Devon Anderson [00:51:16]:
When I, when we have these conversations, I reflect a lot on how I'm so glad that to be born in a time where we have so many options. I love technology, even though parts of it, Parts of it scare the crap out of me and annoy me at times. I love technology. I love that we live in a time where we could look up anything. Again, being such a curious person, I used to think like when we were in high school and stuff and I don't know, I think you're semi around the same age range that I was. I mean, we didn't have a computer computer in our home until high school. So I definitely remember what it was like before you could just Google things. And at time it was like, you know, digging through the library and the Dewey Decimal system and all that.

Devon Anderson [00:51:57]:
But I always thought like I, I was born in, born at a good time for me that I have access to so many of the things that I can really optimize my love for curiosity and exploration where I feel like in other times that might have been very, very different.

Vision Battlesword [00:52:16]:
That's a super. Yeah, you brought up a couple of super interesting points to me there. Well, first of all, let me just share with you that yes, I'm old enough to know about the card files and Dewey decimals in the library of physical tree books. And I was already like, I was also kind of a computer nerd from an early age, getting into whatever was the most cutting edge from the very beginning. So I was on networks and dial ups and all sorts of different ways of communicating and exploring this whole world of the evolving World Wide Web, the Internet from before it was called the Internet. And then as it was kind of coming online, I was out there exploring it. And so that's a whole different realm of exploration that we haven't even touched on. That occurs to me like we've talked about sort of physical exploration, literally traveling in the world.

Vision Battlesword [00:53:14]:
We've talked about psychological or psychedelic or psychic exploration in the whole mental space and even in the energetic space of dimensional reality. But then there's the whole virtual space, which is a different dimension in and of itself that we can explore, which I think is very fascinating as well. I also think it's very troubling in some ways, or I feel caution and concern around that idea of virtual exploration. I think there's something that's very exciting about it and that people have gotten very excited about going back to the early days of mainstream computing. Let's call it with certain movies and things that have predicted that these universes of virtual reality could exist, that we can have entire lifetimes in. But also as I see that sort of stuff manifesting and coming online and becoming more realistic and accessible, I'm very troubled by the possibilities of what happens if we get sucked in there. What do you think about that? Have you done any virtual exploring or what has your exploring been like in the online space?

Devon Anderson [00:54:28]:
That's so funny. I never got into the metaverse thing at all, but no, it's funny that you say that because it did make me think as you were speaking. The other side of it is that in some ways, and who knows, maybe this is just my comfort and what I've lived through. So this could be a biased statement. But in some ways, like I'm saying, I feel like I was born in the right time for myself because we can satisfy all of our curiosities. But I'm also glad that I was born on that cusp of when we started having all this technology because I do really fear for kids today that are getting phones early and you know, diving headfirst into social media and massive amounts of screen time and doom scrolling and all these things because I think this is going to have a lot of impacts and certainly not all positive. So yeah, so as far as online exploration, I mean I've used online as much as anybody else, but I haven't really. I never was big on virtual reality.

Devon Anderson [00:55:26]:
I wasn't a big gamer or anything like that. So I never got into like, like the virtual reality metaverse stuff. I mean I played with like the, played with the Apple one and stuff like that, but it's not something that I've spent a lot of time in. I've treated it more as a kind of an entertainment curiosity thing rather than, you know, something I need to make a part of my life. How about you?

Vision Battlesword [00:55:47]:
I've never explored it, if I'm being honest. I, I've explored like for me, as I said, I, I kind of, I was sort of in the world of 30 and 40 year old adults who were computer enthusiasts when the Internet was just getting built when I was like 6 to 16. And so I feel like a crusty old guy when I think about like for me, you know, text based adventure games were completely immersive. Do you know that's so cool because it's like an interactive book, it's like an interactive story. The virtual reality is your imagination and it's like really good, it's really high Fidelity, you know, you go there, there's places that I feel like I've been and that I've lived.

Devon Anderson [00:56:39]:
Wow.

Vision Battlesword [00:56:39]:
Purely through like very, what we would consider today to be very, very low quality video games. And this was all happening in like the late 80s through the late 90s, you know, into the early 2000s. And chat, you know, when chat was first coming online and you could connect to another person, a stranger, somewhere else in the world and exchange text messages with them on your 14 inch CRT computer monitor. It was just, it's just incredible to look back on it and how people, myself included, were getting completely sucked in to that, what we called cyber space at the time, which is laughable. Which is laughable now. I mean to call it that is laughable. But it was, it was, it felt so real. It felt even super real.

Vision Battlesword [00:57:36]:
You know, it felt supernatural in a way. And I broke with it almost immediately. When the Internet matured to the point that the first social media sites were coming online, or what we back then were called social networking sites were coming online. I don't remember Friendster, but as soon as I saw my friends Starting to build MySpace profiles, I was like, I'm out. Which is ironic because I went into computers and tech for my career, but personally I started to disconnect myself from it and I started to like really limit my visibility and my online presence and my online profile for different reasons. But some of them were just noticing the effects that it was having on me and other people that felt very much similar to a drug. And then some of it had to do with privacy and just just not wanting to be publicly cataloged in that way, which, you know, hey, 20 years later, I feel pretty good about some of these choices, but. Right, but the virtual reality stuff, as far as like headsets and goggles and gloves and vests and things of that nature, I've actually never tried it.

Vision Battlesword [00:58:54]:
I've heard that the tech is getting very, very good. I've heard that there are certain kinds of experiences you can go into now which are getting close to that kind of science fiction reality of Ready Player One or something of that nature. And I'm definitely very concerned about where that goes. If we treat this technology with the same level of responsibility, or I should say lack of responsibility that we've been treating most other cutting edge technologies in the last.

Devon Anderson [00:59:32]:
So true.

Vision Battlesword [00:59:33]:
50 years or something like that. And so true. But it also raises existential questions. I mean, the more and more we go into this science fiction future, present, current state reality, the more and More I look back on movies like the Matrix and others from, you know, 20 to 30 years ago and start to scratch my head and wonder like, are we in a simulation already?

Devon Anderson [01:00:00]:
Wow. Wow.

Vision Battlesword [01:00:01]:
Do you ever think those thoughts?

Devon Anderson [01:00:05]:
You know, I'm not a science fiction fan. I've never really connected to those ideas.

Vision Battlesword [01:00:11]:
Okay. Have you ever heard about the simulation theory of reality?

Devon Anderson [01:00:16]:
I have. I mean, I haven't researched it in depth, but the idea is this is all just like a simulation, right? And none of it's real. Something like that.

Vision Battlesword [01:00:28]:
The basic idea would be that what we think of as, quote, unquote, real reality is actually a simulation and we're all in some kind of virtual reality now and then what that means for what is outside the simulation. Many people have different perspectives or theories about what that could look like or what that could mean. But in general, there's a philosophical or maybe even spiritual existential question to the whole thing that is not, let's just say, to me, it's a serious question. It's not just a fanciful question of like, is this all taking place inside some giant universe sized computer? But more like, what are the rules of this world and of this universe and where did they come from? And what contains this space, this universe? Why do some of these fundamental laws or principles have the specific values that they do? And why are they so specific that they seem to be almost tailored to be tuned, if you will, to give rise to this kind of experience that we can even have? It's sort of like a little chicken egg catch 22 thing. For example, the speed of light, the mass of the electron, the Planck distance. There's just these various strength of certain fundamental forces that seem almost to be calibrated like. Like if you change one by a tiny, tiny amount, the whole thing either falls apart or it collapses back in on itself. And there's just so much that we don't yet understand, like dark matter and dark energy.

Vision Battlesword [01:02:21]:
And why can't the force of gravity be reconciled with the three other fundamental forces? Why has that theory of everything been so elusive, even though we've been working on it for 100 plus years? There's just lots of these questions that open up this possibility of, gosh, maybe this thing really was designed or maybe it really was engineered. And then if that's the case, then that opens just a whole can of worms of like, well, what does that even mean? And I think that's where a lot of the simulation theorists kind of loop back around to, I think, fundamental questions of religion.

Devon Anderson [01:02:59]:
Yeah, No, I think it's an interesting theory. I've never, I don't know, I've never connected as much on that kind of stuff.

Vision Battlesword [01:03:07]:
Is it interesting to you just to think about the origin of the universe or what this all means? Like, why are we here? What, what is this experience? Do you think about those kind of questions at all?

Devon Anderson [01:03:20]:
I do. I think about the why are we here? And like, that kind of thing. It used to freak me out as a kid. I remember like having that thought sometimes and I would get like goosebumps, bumps. Right. Just because it just seemed so big to me. So I do think about the why are we here? The origins of the universe. I've definitely read, you know, the scientific theories and stuff like that.

Devon Anderson [01:03:43]:
And I found it moderately interesting, though not that much just because I feel like, I don't know, I feel like maybe that's one of those things that we'll never understand. And that's okay. You know what I mean? There's a part of me that's like a lot more focused on the here and now. And you know what, what I can learn that's going to be more relevant to the state I'm in now and what I can apply in this life than curiosity about what came before, if that makes sense.

Vision Battlesword [01:04:16]:
Yeah, no, I can relate to that a lot. I think I feel that way most times too, where I try not to dwell on the past a lot. And I think that comes through in my philosophy of coaching and facilitation as well. As you probably noticed, mainly my approach tends to start from where are we now and where would we like to go? And a lot of times what happened before seems to be irrelevant or it can actually be something that can drag us back into an old pattern of the past. But also, I think we wouldn't want to wake up every day with amnesia. Right?

Devon Anderson [01:04:54]:
Totally.

Vision Battlesword [01:04:55]:
So, yeah, it's a real kind of double edged concept for me of not wanting to dwell on the past and wanting to look forward and create the reality that I really want to create with fresh eyes. But also like, ooh, what could I be missing out on? I'm a big student of history. To me, that's been so valuable, learning what's happened and especially about the patterns that we repeat as people, whether that be individuals, cultures, societies, nations, whatever. And then looking at the current state to say, ah, this is where we are. How can we, what can we do about that? Do we want to repeat this cycle again or do we want to try and take it in a different Direction, but it is something I'm curious about.

Devon Anderson [01:05:43]:
Yeah, I'm curious, too. But, you know, like, I said something I might try at some point.

Vision Battlesword [01:05:48]:
Hmm. You know, this brings me back to that experience you mentioned about being in Ceremony and talking about how people see other people's stuff. I think is the kind of the quote, right? Have you ever thought about exploring that more deeply with people? Meaning, like, trying to kind of get to the bottom of it a little bit more scientifically? Like, for example, when your friend says, oh, I saw your stuff, and then reflects that it has to do with your relationship with your mother, and you're like, oh, wow. Yeah, that probably was what was going on for me at that time. But I wonder if you ever thought to, like, explore it more rigorously with anyone and really try to. Try to get more clear on. Is this just a kind of lucky guess because of how well you know me, or were you actually really experiencing something that we can prove or at least get closer to a certainty was like a real phenomenon of something you were picking up, however you were picking it up?

Devon Anderson [01:06:47]:
I haven't, because I haven't had that experience. I feel like if I had, then I would definitely want to explore and dig in more to that. But of my friends that have. And of my friend, like, I have a friend that it's happened to her a couple times, and I have a friend that it was happening to him a lot, and he actually has stopped doing group journeys for the most part right now because he felt like it was such a distraction. So I don't think he necessarily liked it. You know what I mean? So I wouldn't. I wouldn't. I wouldn't ask him to do any experiments on the.

Devon Anderson [01:07:21]:
On the behalf of my curiosity. Is that something that you've ever experienced?

Vision Battlesword [01:07:26]:
I don't know, because I don't know exactly what other people are talking about. And I can share with you the kind of things I do experience, but. But I would want, like, if I had someone sharing that kind of story with me, I would want to do a sacred conversation with them and I would want to ask them a lot of questions about, like, just telling me, okay, what did you see? Or how did you experience that? What was that like for you? And not because I'm probing or trying to pin them down or expose them or anything, but because I really want to know. Like, I want to be able to use my own virtual reality engine, which is my imagination, to model what that experience is like, to try to understand it, and then also to compare it to my own and see if that is the sort of thing that happens to me or not. Because it's not abundantly clear to me what people exactly mean when they say they see something or experienced or felt something that was part of someone else's experience. What I can say is, for me, I say that I see things, but I don't usually. They don't usually occur to me visually, which is odd. You know, based on my name, you would think that I'm like, have this very rich inner, like, visual imagination, which I think I have an imagination as visual as the next person.

Vision Battlesword [01:08:53]:
Average, on average. But when I say that I see things, what I really mean is I have an intuition, like experience. I have. Things fall into place. There's an instantaneous certainty or an instantaneous crystallization of thought or information that can sometimes occur as language. It can sometimes occur as imagery, but it usually just occurs as something that can't really be described except as knowledge. And so that happens to me in the form of future prediction, which you might call premonition. It happens for me in the form of synchronicity, I guess, is what you'd say.

Vision Battlesword [01:09:44]:
Just happened to be. Yesterday, for example, I suddenly had a thought about a friend and a specific thing that we've been talking about over a period of a few months that has to do with an object, a specific object that he was looking for. And I suddenly had this thought about it, and I suddenly reached out to him and said, hey, I'm just curious if you looked for the thing and if you looked for it in this place. And he said, oh, I literally just found it there, like, moments ago. Yeah. And I'm like, oh, that's fucking weird. So sorry, pardon my French. That's awesome.

Vision Battlesword [01:10:30]:
That's kind of how it works for me. And it's not. I didn't see a picture of it in my mind. I just had a random thought and an impulse to reach out and communicate and have this communication. So it's like, yeah, I don't. I don't know what other people mean. And I want to know. Like, I think some people do experience things visually, like meaning they get a picture of the thing or the place or the person in their mind, or they can see it as if remote viewing, or they hear it.

Vision Battlesword [01:11:03]:
You know, clairaudience. Like, I think people hear an actual something that is like an actual voice in their mind. I don't get that so much. I think it's happened to me a few times, but then I think there's this Whole range and spectrum of experiences that. That. That it's almost impossible to describe as a relationship to one of the five senses. It's like something else.

Devon Anderson [01:11:24]:
Right. Well, you should put a call out for that. On a sacred future, sacred conversation.

Vision Battlesword [01:11:30]:
That's a really.

Devon Anderson [01:11:31]:
Somebody's had that experience. They can. They can volunteer.

Vision Battlesword [01:11:34]:
I'm sure many of our people have had that experience. I feel certain.

Devon Anderson [01:11:38]:
You're not sure?

Vision Battlesword [01:11:38]:
No, I am sure that they have.

Devon Anderson [01:11:40]:
Yeah, for sure.

Vision Battlesword [01:11:42]:
What were you gonna say?

Devon Anderson [01:11:43]:
For me, it's interesting. I get a lot of visuals on psychedelics, which I really like because I have aphantasia. So I can't see anything without. And believe me, I've tried really hard. I can't really visualize with closed eyes. I get visuals during psychedelics, but they're not always. A lot of times they just seem entertainment. I don't really know what's going on.

Devon Anderson [01:12:05]:
I don't really know where they're going. But I do find that part very fun.

Vision Battlesword [01:12:11]:
This has been a really fun conversation. I loved some of the different branches that we went down and explored. And really, I feel. Yeah, I feel like I've got a lot more to think about and a lot to integrate just from all these different ideas that we surfaced. So I hope you had a good time and enjoyed it as well.

Devon Anderson [01:12:29]:
I did. I really enjoyed it. It was great catching up and, yeah, it was fun to just kind of talk and see where we end up.

Vision Battlesword [01:12:37]:
Great. Well, thanks for spending so much time with me and thanks for working through the tech issues as well. It really means a lot that you stuck it out in there and we got her done. So, yeah, I really had a good time and I look forward to publishing this one and sharing it with you soon.

Devon Anderson [01:12:53]:
Sounds great. Thanks, Vishen. I'll talk to you soon.