Vision Battlesword [00:00:00]:
Well, how are you feeling today?

Mark Boughton [00:00:01]:
Feeling good, purposeful, engaged, Little tired. Feeling well used by life and creation of life.

Vision Battlesword [00:00:09]:
Nice. Well used by life and creation. I'm going to remember that one. Who are you? Mark Boughton.

Mark Boughton [00:00:17]:
Oh man, that's a good question.

Vision Battlesword [00:00:22]:
Thank you.

Mark Boughton [00:00:22]:
And trying to figure that one out for a long time on more of an ontological level.

Vision Battlesword [00:00:28]:
Haven't we all?

Mark Boughton [00:00:30]:
But I, I guess on a. On a more practical level, I spend a lot of my time freestyle rapping. That's a huge part of my life as, as you know, beatboxing, spoken word, rap, poetry. Creating a business with two amazing men that does men's work. Programs, courses, retreats. It's called the King's Codes. That's a big part of my work in the world. And then a lot of my professional time and attention is really devoted to helping individuals and organizations scale their purpose.

Mark Boughton [00:01:03]:
So that's actually how I would capture my own purpose statement in life. It's helping individuals and organizations scale purpose and impact.

Vision Battlesword [00:01:12]:
Well, how convenient because the topic of our little chat today is in fact purpose. And I'm really interested in purpose myself. It's a topic that I'm looking forward to exploring because it's been a big aspect of my life and my journey as well. So thanks for bringing that topic to sacred conversations and I'm looking forward to getting into it.

Mark Boughton [00:01:35]:
Yeah, thanks for having me.

Vision Battlesword [00:01:36]:
Well, we were. Before we started the recording, we were getting into something really interesting about archetypes. And we were talking about at least two archetypes that you've embodied and have been attempting to integrate over the course of your life and especially this leg of your journey. The artist and the entrepreneur. And I'd like to get back to that. I know we put a pin in that and we'll come back to it. But before we do, I would just like to start where I normally start with a conversation like this, which is what are we talking about? What is in your opinion, purpose?

Mark Boughton [00:02:13]:
For me, purpose is profoundly personal. You know, there's some like frameworks and formulas for how to capture your purpose statement and how to write it down and here's what to do with it. And I think there's so many great frameworks and guidelines that can be useful in the pursuit of purpose. And at the same time I've noticed that if, if I am shoulding myself regarding purpose, I'm probably mistaking the finger for the moon. Are you familiar with this? No, I think it's a Buddhist parable. But basically like if you have a hand Pointing at the moon. You want to not mistake the finger pointing for the thing that it's pointing at.

Vision Battlesword [00:02:55]:
Okay. Is this kind of like the map and the territory?

Mark Boughton [00:02:57]:
Yeah, map and the territory. That presupposition.

Vision Battlesword [00:03:00]:
Right.

Mark Boughton [00:03:00]:
So I think with purpose, it's like. For me, it's a. It's a lifelong inquiry that I deepen into and expand my understanding of outside of any external framework or model. The spirit of purpose transcends and includes all of the different models, thoughts and communications around purpose that have ever existed, at least in my current meaning making around it.

Vision Battlesword [00:03:26]:
I love that. Do you think. Is purpose something that we come into this life or existence with, with, or is it something that we create for ourself along the way?

Mark Boughton [00:03:38]:
I don't think it has to be one or the other. Generally how I think about it is that whichever of those categories is most makes most sense to someone and feels most empowering and inspiring. Just go with that one.

Vision Battlesword [00:03:52]:
Okay.

Mark Boughton [00:03:52]:
Yeah. Maybe it's predestined and it's innate and you're born with it and you discover it, or maybe you build it a long way. Whatever feels most. Yeah, liberating and powerful for you. Just go with that one.

Vision Battlesword [00:04:02]:
Okay. How do you know a purpose when you find it?

Mark Boughton [00:04:05]:
For me, there's like a. There's a felt sense in my subjective experience when I'm really on purpose.

Vision Battlesword [00:04:11]:
What is that like?

Mark Boughton [00:04:13]:
It's like a clear, directive, decisive. It feels meaningful. There's momentum, growth, there's learning. For me, that's like a dimension of it. Growth and learning is a huge part of pursuing purpose. I have a sense of the impact that it's having to make the world better. And I can see it, feel it in some way.

Vision Battlesword [00:04:37]:
Do you think that we people have an innate need to feel purposeful or to have a purpose and know what that purpose is?

Mark Boughton [00:04:48]:
I think we have a. In innate need to have to feel a sense of purpose in our life. Purpose, purpose, meaning contribution. Definitely knowing what it is. That one's a little. I'm not sure about that one. I remember talking to this really incredible speaker, author, coach, this man named Tim Kelly. He wrote a book on purpose.

Mark Boughton [00:05:11]:
He's a purpose educator. And I remember talking to him a while ago. He shared. He shared so much with me around purpose. But one of the things that really stood out to me is that he said, you know, sometimes I talk to people and they're highly engaged in the world. They're having a big impact. They're taking action. They're.

Mark Boughton [00:05:29]:
They have really full lives. That are doing something good for the world and they feel that in themselves. And I asked them what's their purpose? And they're like, I don't know. And I don't have time to think about it right now because I got to get back to changing the world, building my business, whatever it might be. And he was, he said that inquiring into your purpose or some sort of purpose discovery process can be really fruitful if you have the space and time and you have the need for it. But if you're like taking action and it feels meaningful and it feels satisfying and rewarding, you might not actually need some prolonged purpose quest to figure out what it is. You're kind of living it every day. Right.

Mark Boughton [00:06:10]:
And he said that people that are most on purpose, they don't know exact, they don't have clear language to capture their purpose. And that's totally okay. Which kind of blew my mind. I always assumed like that you had to know exactly what it was before you'd be able to do it. And I now don't believe that that is fundamentally true. You can be living your purpose and not even a hundred percent clear how to articulate it.

Vision Battlesword [00:06:33]:
Yeah, yeah. That's what was just coming up for me is I'm noticing that distinction between pursuing purpose intuitively. One could even say maybe unconsciously or subconsciously versus having an intellectual understanding, or at the very least being able to intellectually conceptualize or articulate a purpose, knowing your purpose, that is to say, versus living your purpose. But the two don't necessarily require each other. I could have an idea of what I think my purpose is and yet not be in alignment with it. And also I can be living clearly in a state in a purposeful way or in a state of purpose to some, to an outside observer, and yet not be able to articulate it to you and not even be particularly concerned about it, as you say. Yep, that's fascinating.

Mark Boughton [00:07:32]:
Yeah. Which is.

Vision Battlesword [00:07:33]:
Go ahead.

Mark Boughton [00:07:34]:
I have this theory that a lot of the pre conscious assumptions that individuals hold with regards to purpose and purpose statements, mission statements, are actually inherited from larger organizations. In that if you have, for me as an individual, I'm clear enough on my purpose to take action. It feels meaningful and I'm moving towards something rewarding and satisfying and I'm enjoying my life, that's good enough for me. But if I'm part of a 10 person team, the value of clarifying our purpose and language actually grows and expands substantially because now we have to have a shared context. What's the north Star that we might orient towards together. What's the shared purpose of this venture? It becomes really important once you have more people involved. And if you have 100 person or 1,000 person or 10,000 person organization, suddenly having a clear purpose and mission actually makes more sense because the value of it is not just in one's subjective experience and journey, it's shared meaning making shared North Star. So it actually it's more important in the context of larger organization.

Mark Boughton [00:08:44]:
So I think a lot of people, when pursuing personal purpose in their life as individuals, take some of these frameworks of thought from larger organizations and try and superimpose them upon their individual consciousness in a manner that is suboptimal, let's say.

Vision Battlesword [00:09:00]:
I think that's a really important insight and I'd never thought of it that way before, but I can see exactly what you're talking about. And also at the same point. Well, let me just kind of reflect back to you. What I heard you say is that on the one hand, for a group of people, a team, or at least more than one person to get together and successfully collaborate, create or coordinate to accomplish something, it's super helpful for them to be able to articulate a shared understanding of purpose that makes perfect sense to me. And at the same point, I've also noticed in myself and others that I've interacted with in different ways in my life that when people lack a personal or internal sense of purpose in their life, many times that can lead to depression or various types of suboptimal states, I guess, to use your word. Do you notice that as well, that having it either being in a state of living your purpose, being in it, being in a state of motivated action where something purposeful is occurring, even if you don't really know exactly where it's all leading or what the big picture of it is, or being able to articulate to yourself at an individual level, this is my purpose. This is what I feel like I am here to do? I guess. Is that a fair way of summarizing what a purpose is? Knowing what you feel that you're here to do? Having.

Vision Battlesword [00:10:36]:
Having something higher or external or larger, greater than yourself that you're contributing toward. Is that what a purpose is?

Mark Boughton [00:10:45]:
Yeah, I'm hesitant to say that that's what it is in totality because I love being in the inquiry. The moment I feel like I've put it in a box is the moment I fail to inquire and endeavor to comprehend the complexity and ever evolving nature of purpose as a concept. So I Think it's that. And that's what I would, what I would say.

Vision Battlesword [00:11:10]:
I love talking to you.

Mark Boughton [00:11:11]:
Yeah, you too, man. So rich every time.

Vision Battlesword [00:11:13]:
This is awesome. Okay, so in basically what you're just. What you're saying back to me right now is you would actually prefer not to clearly define purpose to you. There's something interesting in an intentional, I don't want to say ambiguity, but an intentional flexibility in allowing that to mean different things to different people or in different contexts. Is that what you're saying?

Mark Boughton [00:11:41]:
Yeah, yeah. I find for me that it's more empowering to pursue and inquire, but not get too attached to an intellectual model or roadmap regarding my own personal purpose. In that if it's true, that purpose is profoundly personal and it's basically discovered in my relationship with self and God. If that's true, and for me that feels true, if I attempt to over intellectualize it, I can actually take myself a little bit further from its unfolding. Does that make sense or is that a little too esoteric?

Vision Battlesword [00:12:19]:
No, I think that's perfect actually, because I think that's sort of what I was trying to say earlier. It seems to me that there's something important about purpose as it relates to the relationship between self and God. I think that's kind of what I was, what I was saying is that there almost seems to be something inherent, I'm not saying suggesting that you couldn't have a non spiritual, let's say, I mean take maybe within the framework of like existentialism. If we don't necessarily believe in God or a spiritual realm or anything outside of the meaning that we can make for ourselves within the context of a materialistic universe, let's say there could still be a purpose there. I think we could have a self created purpose. But in any case, I think what I was originally saying as a response to what you were talking about with how we may take ideas that we get from organizations, companies, teams, and then apply them to ourselves as individuals. And that may not always be perfectly healthy or optimal. But yet my response to that is, isn't it also true that if we find ourselves completely without purpose, if we find ourselves, let's say idle or engaged in activities that are not, we don't find to be meaningful and that we're we, we sense ourself to be aimless or we sense ourself to not necessarily be contributing toward anything that feels in alignment with something greater than ourself? Isn't that when we may fall into that kind of malaise or depression or apathy of being without purpose.

Mark Boughton [00:14:10]:
Yeah, definitely. I remember learning something recently that in Thailand, how the mental health system treats depression is giving people community service opportunities, which is so not what we do here.

Vision Battlesword [00:14:28]:
Yeah.

Mark Boughton [00:14:28]:
And it's so elegant and simple.

Vision Battlesword [00:14:32]:
Great.

Mark Boughton [00:14:32]:
You're really depressed. No need to talk about it or your feelings. Here's a bunch of elderly people and they need someone to walk them across the street. And here's some underprivileged kids that need someone to hang out with them and be a good role model and go and do that for three months and then come back. If you're still depressed, people don't come back.

Vision Battlesword [00:14:48]:
That's fascinating. It's like, here's your prescription. Do something useful.

Mark Boughton [00:14:52]:
Yeah, exactly. And here's a little, like, infrastructure to do it. And I, I think that's like, one of the, the greatest ways to get over myself, to do something good for others.

Vision Battlesword [00:15:03]:
Yeah. Huh.

Mark Boughton [00:15:04]:
I also, I don't think that purpose is something that lives in a vacuum or that I discover in a cave meditating and journaling and praying by myself. Like, I, I, I think it's actually purpose is like a byproduct of engagement in the world in ways that feel meaningful. I engage and then I get feedback from the marketplace and from the conversations that I'm having with people. And then I go and do something, I reflect, I take some action, and then I get to just engage with the marketplace, especially in the context of business. Purpose is most effectively discovered through both action and stillness, through both engagement in the world and intentional introspection into my own psyche. If I'm endeavoring to find purpose in a cave, introspecting exclusively, I'm kind of missing some important puzzle pieces. And if I'm endeavoring to find purpose exclusively through action and doing things in the world, I'm missing that space for deep introspection. So there's kind of a dance between the two.

Mark Boughton [00:16:07]:
And for me, it's clarifying or being more in, in alignment with my life's highest purpose. Is, has happened more since I've kind of realized this and approached the stillness and action dimensions of purpose, the yin and yang.

Vision Battlesword [00:16:23]:
I love that. And I love that you just mentioned yin and Yang as well, because I was just about to say that a theme that's been coming up in these past several sacred conversations, especially the one that I just recorded but haven't produced yet on the topic of balance, is that theme. A lot of times we seem to get caught up in binaries and polarities and like that there's a right and a wrong way for way to do things, or that things have to be one way or the other, or they're black or they're white. It's spiritual versus material. It's, you know, abundance versus austerity. It's purpose through action versus purpose through contemplation, whatever. Whatever these things may be. And I always just keep coming back to that idea of both and transcendent include, not necessarily the mean, between the extremes, although that's been another concept that's come up that we've explored a little bit.

Vision Battlesword [00:17:24]:
But the idea of integration really then. And like what you're talking about, where you can imagine someone, what you were saying before, living in purpose. You can imagine someone who is in action, in experience, in a state of creativity, manifestation, engagement, whatever that looks like, who is clearly in a purpose, whether that's creating a family, creating a business, a career, art, whatever that may be. But then there could be. There could be something that they're missing. You know, there could be like a kind of a missing the not stop to smell the roses or miss the forest for the trees kind of thing, where if I'm always heads down, I've always just one foot in front of the other. If I'm always just moving in a direction, sure, I'm getting somewhere and that's somewhere you could call my purpose. But is it possible that if I were able to take a break or look up and around or take a step back from the scenery or something, that I could see a higher purpose, maybe recalibrate myself toward pointing in an even more meaningful, more fulfilling direction for myself and for the world? That's kind of what you're talking about.

Mark Boughton [00:18:41]:
Yeah, it's really well said. Yeah, I like that distinction between the doing and the being of purpose.

Vision Battlesword [00:18:48]:
Yeah.

Mark Boughton [00:18:48]:
Helping to smell the roses. Maybe that's my purpose in this moment.

Vision Battlesword [00:18:52]:
Yes, and I'm so glad you mentioned that as well, because I noticed that theme coming up a lot in our circles, in our community, this doing versus being as if one's right and the other's wrong sometimes. And I really just want to bring that perspective to the conversation of. They both require each other. They're both part of the same thing, even in a way. Yeah. For me, I. I think I agree with you that I tend to find my purpose, at least, I don't know if I want to say in equal parts, but at least in both parts of just kind of strokes of insight. I don't know where they come from.

Vision Battlesword [00:19:35]:
Maybe they are Types of stillness. I think sometimes they can even come from types of activity as well. But these kind of strokes of intuition or vision, if you will, where I just see, like, oh, this is something I really should do, I'd like to do, I want to do. This is important to me. And then oftentimes also through that kind of experimentation like you were talking about, through activity and just trying different things and getting feedback and seeing what people seeing what the world, what the marketplace, if you want, is responding to, and what. What the world seems to want from me, that's also helpful to seeing what my purpose is.

Mark Boughton [00:20:17]:
Yeah. I just had this thought that too much doing without being can have this, like, feeling of, like, missing life. And this has been my mistake historically. So much doing not balanced with being, and it's like life is passing me by, and I'm not, like, enjoying the moment. And life is just a bunch of moments stitched together, and then you die, you know, so I'm missing something. If there's too much doing not balanced by being, and similarly, if there's too much being not balanced by intentional doing and action in the world, I can feel like I'm not having my living, my fullest contribution to make society better, which feels a little empty. So there is a. I don't know if balance is the right word, but a way to, like, dance, I guess, between these two.

Vision Battlesword [00:21:03]:
Yeah, these two energies. Right. So can you imagine a state of doing this while simultaneously holding or experiencing being? This at the same time? Is there. Is there an opportunity that we could have for presence in action, maybe you'd call it? That's.

Mark Boughton [00:21:26]:
That's currently my own personal growth work.

Vision Battlesword [00:21:28]:
Yeah.

Mark Boughton [00:21:29]:
To be present while God is doing through me.

Vision Battlesword [00:21:34]:
I love that. Would you be open to expanding on that a little bit more? Just, like, what does that mean to you and. And feel. How does that feel to you, that statement, God is doing through me?

Mark Boughton [00:21:48]:
Mm. I have this often when I'm freestyling, where. When I'm most deeply in a flow state, I. I'm just witnessing the. The words happening through me and something else that. It feels as though something else has taken over, and I'm just witnessing it talk through my tongue and consciousness. And. So beautiful to be in.

Mark Boughton [00:22:10]:
In flow and. And surrendered in that way. And it's actually an intention that I hold as much as possible to have my moments imbued with that quality of presence and surrender and flow. So it's not confined exclusively to the arena of poetry, but comes through in, you know, many, as many moments. As possible. And I've had this too. Working with clients and coaching people or facilitating. It's like I'm just kind of watching something take over my being and, like, say the things and do the things and move my body, and it's really beautiful to watch.

Vision Battlesword [00:22:45]:
And how weird is that as an experience? So, like, do you have an actual feeling of being embodied by God in that respect? And sort of like you become a witness of this divine creative process that's just.

Mark Boughton [00:22:58]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:22:59]:
Doing through you?

Mark Boughton [00:22:59]:
Totally. I remember freestyling. I was, like, performing once for a group people. And then after, everyone was like, wow. And I came out of it to, let's say, normal consciousness at some point on the other side, I was like, wow, did you guys see that? That was so cool. What just happened? And a really, like, on one level, it was me, and I take credit for it because I put in so many years of my life to studying this art form. And I just. I don't take credit for it.

Mark Boughton [00:23:26]:
Something happened and it talked through me, and I just witnessed it. And it was really cool to be a part of, you know? And I feel like both can. Both can be held in my awareness. The dignity of, like, I did a thing, and the humility of that was something beyond, something more intelligent than me that happened to move through in the moment. And I'm privileged to get to channel it and witness it. And it really feels like I'm a part of the audience. I was on stage, yet afterwards I was like, wow, what a great show that I got to watch.

Vision Battlesword [00:23:58]:
Yeah.

Mark Boughton [00:23:59]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:24:00]:
That God just happened to be performing with my body.

Mark Boughton [00:24:02]:
Yeah. And I was just there kind of along for the ride with the audience.

Vision Battlesword [00:24:06]:
That's fantastic.

Mark Boughton [00:24:07]:
Yeah. So fun.

Vision Battlesword [00:24:08]:
Is that another way of calling flow or calling a flow state? Have we kind of stumbled on a definition of that which is being in flow? Or let's say the flow state is the synergy of beingness and doing this. Kind of like when both of those things are simultaneously activated, then that's when we feel like we're in flow.

Mark Boughton [00:24:33]:
It really. It that fits the felt sense for me, for sure. And I'm sure, you know, like, a lot of meditation practices kind of fall into two cap. Two major categories. One are concentration practices where you really focus on the breath and you try and keep your awareness there. Your mind wanders and you try and bring it back and you're focusing attention. And then some that are a more broad awareness practices where you just relax back and notice where awareness naturally goes. If it's here There, there's no, there's no trying to focus it.

Mark Boughton [00:25:05]:
You're just noticing wherever it wants to wander. So broad versus broad awareness versus like concentration, practice of the main category. And when I'm really in a flow state, it feels like both are happening simultaneously.

Vision Battlesword [00:25:18]:
Right.

Mark Boughton [00:25:18]:
The I'm, I am doing, I am focusing my mind so I can choose words to communicate what I want to communicate. But I'm also so surrendered to broad awareness and I'm not doing so. And it's neat to feel both happening through.

Vision Battlesword [00:25:32]:
Right. Right. Yeah. What I'm. The what keeps coming up for me as we're talking about this, this might sound a little funny to you or anyone else that hears it, is bowling. I mean, I think any, any sport or athletic activity, people are very familiar with flow state and what that, what that could be like. For me, it just keeps coming back, keeps coming back in my memory of like times when I've really been in flow. And I used to be a very avid bowler, a scratch bowler, you know, 200 plus average and was in leagues and I bowled a lot.

Vision Battlesword [00:26:07]:
And yeah, there's a, there's a, just this peculiar experience sensation that I totally get what you're talking about with that hyper focused like laser beam of attention simultaneous with this kind of somehow 360 degree omniprespective of everything that's happening in the environment. And it's not quite like you're watching yourself from a third person perspective, but it almost feels that way. But yeah, when getting into that flow state with bowling where you're finally just, you hit that, you hit that point for whatever reason in your game where you know, you take the first step, you push the ball away and then after that it's like I'm gone and it's just like I'm aware of everything that's going on around me. And also like my attention is laser beam focused on that spot where the ball's going to go and exactly the rotation it's going to have when it gets there and all this stuff and then you just, you just release and all the pins go down and you're like, it must be just like what you're talking about with freestyle rap where you're just watching it all happen, you're like, well I didn't really, don't really feel like I did that and yet I certainly did it, you know. Yeah, it's really interesting.

Mark Boughton [00:27:26]:
So satisfying.

Vision Battlesword [00:27:27]:
Yeah.

Mark Boughton [00:27:28]:
To feel that. It's the, the more deeply I have tasted that feeling, that experience in the past, the more I'm motivated to train and cultivate more capacity to enter flow low states at will.

Vision Battlesword [00:27:39]:
Yeah.

Mark Boughton [00:27:40]:
Because I'm like, that is so life giving and exhilarating and beautiful. I just want more of it, you know, And I do think you can prepare and train your. Your body mind system to be able to access that state more effectively.

Vision Battlesword [00:27:53]:
Totally. I agree. I mean, I'm doing it right now. I would say that that is one of, if not the main purpose that I feel that I have in, in life right now is creating those kind of programs to train myself and then to help train others to enter a flow state on demand for productivity.

Mark Boughton [00:28:16]:
Yeah. I also think purpose can shift based on the context or the moment. Like if someone's with their family, that's purposeful, you know, and it's different than the purpose that they might have been pursuing while they're at work. So it's. They're just different manifestations of. Of the same intent of purpose. And they're really both really valuable. Right.

Mark Boughton [00:28:41]:
Or in my relationships, friendships, whatever. So many different arenas of purpose. And it's nice to expand. Otherwise it feels like, oh, my purpose is only expressed through my work in the world, what I'm endeavoring to accomplish. But it.

Vision Battlesword [00:28:55]:
It that.

Mark Boughton [00:28:56]:
But it's also this conversation and all my relationships and my partnership and all these different arenas.

Vision Battlesword [00:29:04]:
So in this whole context of purpose that we've, you know, sort of explored now and I think created sort of space for ourselves here, I wonder if you'd like to reflect on that other piece you were talking about with artistry versus entrepreneurship and those archetypes that might sometimes feel like a polarity, you know, or a binary, a zero sum, if you will. But how you have started to be bringing those together for yourself as an integration in your experience of an entrepreneurial artist, if you will, or an artistic entrepreneur. And what does that have to do with your purpose in life?

Mark Boughton [00:29:45]:
Oh, man, such a good question. Yeah. So as we were talking before the recording, historically, I felt more like an artist in my business life. I was talking to my former business partner yesterday about this, and we were kind of laughing and reminiscing about our younger selves. We're both such artists, you know, like, oh, let's build a program, let's design a retreat, let's create an experience. And then we were created and be like, that was great, let's do another one. But let's do it totally different this time because the artist wants to paint a painting, and then when it's done, you don't Want to paint the exact same painting again and again and again. You want to create something new.

Mark Boughton [00:30:22]:
The creative spirit is speaking to me as an artist and inspiring me to create new things and play and experiment. And then the, you know, that's kind of the artist mindset or archetype. And then the entrepreneur archetype and mindset is, all right, we've built one course. Now how do we systematize, streamline, automate, and scale this and sell it over and over again so we can have a bigger impact and make more money? And we're not going to design another course for a year until we figured out how to scale this one or sell it effectively, whatever. Such a different mindset. And I, historically, in my own psyche, there was a tension between these different archetypes. And I've seen it in a lot of businesses. The tension is between different people.

Mark Boughton [00:31:08]:
One that's like artist and makes this thing that I'm creating is my baby. And I want it to be perfect. I want to be good. I want it to be a unique expression of what's in my heart and soul as an artist. And the entrepreneur is like, yeah, yeah, but let's just get it done. And okay, that's good enough to test it out in the marketplace. And yeah, yeah, sure, you're. You're attached to it and you have feelings about it.

Mark Boughton [00:31:30]:
Who cares? Let's just try and sell it. And if the market doesn't want it, that's okay. We'll just create a new thing. And their identity is not as tied into it. Right. It's a totally different way of thinking and they're both so valuable and valid. What I've seen be really effective as a. As a combination in business is for one person to hold more of the artist energy and archetype and someone else to hold more of the business.

Mark Boughton [00:31:51]:
Businessman or yeah, entrepreneur archetype, let's say, because it creates a healthy and constructive tension between the two. The artist wants it to be perfect and quiet quality, and the entrepreneur wants it to go to market and test it out and see if they can sell it. Right. So over the years, I've moved more towards the primarily an entrepreneur. And art still comes out of my life, but mostly through music and other. Other arenas.

Vision Battlesword [00:32:15]:
Yeah, you're helping me see so many things right now like the entrepreneurial and the artistic impulse kind of are inherently at cross purposes in a way. They're not necessarily heading toward the same goal. And I can see that now very clearly in myself and in others that the artistic impulse doesn't really care about, to a certain degree, the artistic impulse. Doesn't care about success, actually doesn't care about it. Certainly doesn't necessarily care about money. Maybe that's even a stereotype. Right. You know, that somehow artistic endeavors are inherently like subscribing for a life of poverty or at the very least, scarcity or something along those lines.

Vision Battlesword [00:33:04]:
But there's something true about that where it's like, my art is my art, you know, it's. I'm not as concerned, or maybe I'm not concerned at all about who actually wants to buy it. I'm concerned about how beautiful it is.

Mark Boughton [00:33:18]:
Yes.

Vision Battlesword [00:33:18]:
I'm concerned about how, you know, much of my own personal expression and experience and divine inspiration is in it. It's not the price tag or the number of units sold is not what the artist cares about. On the other side, though, the entrepreneur, that is their purpose. That is their goal. Their goal is to, you know, one could say in a very, I think, a crude way, like the entrepreneur's goal is to get rich or to make money or to be successful or to achieve. But I think that if we wanted to make it more equivalent to. If the artist's purpose is to put beauty into the world, then maybe I would say the entrepreneur's purpose is to get beauty into the hands of as many people as possible.

Mark Boughton [00:34:07]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:34:07]:
To be of service, to add value to the world, to make a contribution, if you will. A different. It's a different kind of contribution. One is a contribution of quality and the other is a contribution of scale. But they're very yin and yang in the same way as some of the other things that we've talked about. And I think there's even a sense in which there's a masculine and feminine dynamic at play between the artist and the entrepreneur as well. So that idea of the constructive tension that you're talking about before, I think that's so wise in how we could maybe look at our attempts to build teams or partnerships and collaborate in the sense of we've each got a superpower here, and when we team up, we're actually greater than the sum of our parts as compared to the idea of working against each other or each of us bringing each other down in some way more like we obviously maximize each other's potential.

Mark Boughton [00:35:12]:
Yep, Very, very true. The example that comes to mind is like a musician and then their. Their producer, right? Musicians, like, I want to create this song totally unique, and it doesn't follow any formulas that are popular or common. It's 20 minutes long and I'm going to do this and it's going to change. And then the producer is like, yeah, yeah. But if you make it exactly 3 minutes and 12 seconds in length and you make it catchy with the lyrics that people can sing to that repeat and you got to do it this way and make it within these. These are the popular topics that pop music touches on. So try and weave those in.

Mark Boughton [00:35:51]:
If you do that, a song will reach mainstream appeal more effectively. And they're aware of this. There's, like a lot of science to it.

Vision Battlesword [00:35:58]:
Sure.

Mark Boughton [00:35:58]:
Here's the formula for creating a song that will go viral.

Vision Battlesword [00:36:02]:
Yeah.

Mark Boughton [00:36:03]:
And the artist wants to create whatever the muse tells them to create. And then their manager is like, all right, yeah, but here's some constraints. If you want to hit mainstream appeal and have more people listen to it, and they're both like holding a really valuable perspective and they need each other to have the biggest impact, to have the biggest expression of purpose jointly, they need each other and they should argue and fight. That's like a healthy part of the relationship, is that there's like creative tension if the artist is just left to do it their own way. They create what feels to them most exciting and beautiful, but no one listens to it because it doesn't actually fit the formula very well. And if the manager is just saying, hey, just do this formula, who cares about the soul behind it? Who cares about the passion and the unique creative energy? It comes across as dry and empty and formulaic. They need each other in some way.

Vision Battlesword [00:36:56]:
Yeah. So both extremes are suboptimal. Or even you could say each approach taken to its extreme would be completely ineffective. Right. The 28 minute song that nobody gets.

Mark Boughton [00:37:13]:
To hear but it feels good to the artist.

Vision Battlesword [00:37:15]:
Right. Is like not effective unless you're just on some personal creative journey for your own pleasure or something like that. But likewise, the 3 minute and 12 second cookie cutter pop song that's so empty and shallow that. That, you know, you can't even get it. You can't even get it to go viral by playing it on the radio or something like that is also ineffective and won't get it. Won't get anybody anywhere. But what's interesting to me and what you're saying right now is that what I heard you just articulate is that you think there's actual constructive value in the tension that. That.

Vision Battlesword [00:37:50]:
That you said they should fight and that that's going to give rise to something better. Does that fighting does. Going through the crucible of Conflict actually improve the art and the product at the end of the day, in your opinion? As compared to what if they were able to just compromise right off the bat and say, here's the deal, you get to make your 20 minute song, we're going to put it at the end of the album and you're going to make the 3 minute and 12 second hooky consumer product as well. And that's going to be our tip of the spear into the marketplace. That's going to bring your album, your artistic creation along with it and that's going to allow us to grow an audience that you appeal to, that's going to then actually have an opportunity to listen to your 20 minute song. I guess where I'm just going is, is the fight itself helpful? That's my question. Or is it only just a stage of development that we're at where we haven't yet gotten to the point where we recognize the value in each other's differences and superpowers to where we can cut through the chase straight to the compromise? What do you think?

Mark Boughton [00:39:04]:
I've seen both operate successfully in different businesses. Some were, you know, you have one person holding this perspective, someone else holding this perspective. They both bring their thoughts and their feelings and their opinion and perspective really fully and then there's a little crunchiness and some constructive conflict and then the end result is better because they both were willing to be honest and other dynamics where there's a little more synergy and that doesn't have to happen more often. I think if you get a group of two or more human beings who have diverse backgrounds, diverse perspectives, they're kind of seeing something different and advocating for something different and being really honest with each other and fully expressed, they're not holding back. The more people are honest with each other and really share fully, I think the more there can be that creative tension, which is a good thing. If we have a shared purpose, and this goes back to the value of having a clear purpose statement in the context of co creative endeavors, if there's a shared North Star of purpose that we all value, all endeavoring to honor and pursue, then you bring your perspective, I bring my perspective, someone else brings their perspective, we fight it out, right? And then the wisest, most true, powerful and beautiful thing is left over. But if we lack that shared context for the North Star of purpose, whatever conflict we might have is not going to be as constructive because we're not aligned going into the conversation about where we even want to go anyway. Right.

Mark Boughton [00:40:39]:
So I think that's the value of doing the pre work with teams and with organizations and groups of people to get really clear on, like, what's our shared purpose that we're endeavoring to honor.

Vision Battlesword [00:40:49]:
Right.

Mark Boughton [00:40:50]:
And once we're all good about that and we actually feel inspired by that purpose, suddenly you saying, no, Mark, it needs to be shorter and it shouldn't be such. So innovative. Try and honor these constraints. I'm more willing to say yes because I see the North Star of purpose. We've pre agreed that that matters.

Vision Battlesword [00:41:11]:
Right.

Mark Boughton [00:41:11]:
And that matters more than my feelings and my opinion. It matters more than your feelings and your opinion. So we can both. We can all bring ourselves full out and then truth and beauty lives on as a result of our willingness to be honest.

Vision Battlesword [00:41:26]:
Right, Right. Yeah, I love that. I was thinking of the North Star as a metaphor as well, while you're talking and just kind of imagining like a group of people, you know, on a long and maybe even arduous journey through the desert or something. And if we've all agreed before we set foot in the desert, you know, on this long journey, you know, which may. May have risks and challenges along the way that, like, okay, we're always going to orient to that star, no matter what's going on. And we may disagree on where to camp for the night. We may disagree on whether or not we should stop at that oasis. We may, you know, disagree on how to, you know, how to pack the gear or what we'd like to eat for dinner or any of these other things.

Vision Battlesword [00:42:08]:
But at the beginning of each day or at the, at the beginning of each night, because it's a star, we're going to. We're all going to agree, we're orienting to that star, and that is our higher purpose. And I'm just seeing the wisdom in that method for really any type of community, collaboration, partnership, relationship, you know, to have that thing that we can come back to that we agree on. No matter how gnarly, you know, messy and weird things are getting in this particular moment right now. What's. What are we. Where do we fall back to? It's like, okay, well, look, this feels, you know, this feels gnarly and uncomfortable. And I don't agree with what's going on right now, but can we both agree that we love each other? Can we both agree that, you know, no matter what happens, we're going to be friends? No matter what happens, we're going to put the album out at the end of the, you know, at the end of the month, it's going to have eight tracks on it.

Vision Battlesword [00:43:16]:
Can we agree on that? Okay, great. Now how can we build up from that again to rebuild from whatever that foundational purpose is that we know, that we share. It feels like that's so important to being able to get through that creative tension or constructive conflict which I think both of those phrases are so interesting and not the same but. Yeah, that just seems so important. And I feel that there's a lot of groups, teams, companies and organizations that fail because they didn't sufficiently codify that foundational purpose. And maybe that's true for individuals as well when they get lost or feel adrift in their own life. Is that that's what's missing is what North Star even do I orient toward right now?

Mark Boughton [00:44:06]:
Yeah, it's one of the things I took most from studying Holacracy system of self organization, business. They do a really great job of weaving a purpose orientation throughout the entire organization based on that model. And I think if there's a group of humans and one of them decides what the purpose is and then tells the other this is our shared purpose tends to not go very well because people don't feel bought in to that, that purpose. Right. To giving their time, their life force, their creative energy to serving that purpose. But if it's. If that purpose arises more emergent in a more emergent manner through our relationship, we're both more bought into it. Right.

Mark Boughton [00:44:51]:
Instead of me telling you what it is, now you have to follow it, whatever. So I think there can be a way of, I wouldn't say like crowdsourcing but getting a collective contribution to the clarification of purpose when it comes to co creative endeavors and business and also weaving it through different levels of the organization. One thing I've seen done really effectively is a business has a North Star higher purpose. That's what it's there to serve. And then a department and a team inside of that department has its own purpose. And then individual roles inside of that team have their own purpose. So purpose is manifesting at multiple layers. The highest level macro purpose of the organization, the purpose of a team with six people on it.

Mark Boughton [00:45:39]:
And then my individual roles purpose. So you can check with these brightest North Star and then there are other stars in the sky that kind of help illuminate the path for us. Right. And having purpose broken down at these different levels of an organization can be really helpful because then it's like a primary decision making filter.

Vision Battlesword [00:46:02]:
Yeah.

Mark Boughton [00:46:02]:
I can ask myself what's the organization's purpose and does this Decision serve that yes or no. How could it serve that better? What's this department's purpose? What's my role's purpose? Doing the pre work to map that out in a really effective way that we agree upon, we feel excited about can save so much future hassle because now there's a foundation for the conversation and any decisions that we have to make.

Vision Battlesword [00:46:23]:
Yeah. How do you create shared purpose among two or more individuals?

Mark Boughton [00:46:31]:
Yeah, it depends a lot on the context. It's often true that one or more people inside of an enterprise, be it a community or you know, a business or some other co creative project, it's often true that one person is doing more work. I'm working on it full time and then there's a couple other people half time. So it makes more sense for the individual that is holding more time, energy, responsibility to I wouldn't say have more of a say but to be more of a steward and listening receptacle such that God can, the purpose can move from the divine through that individual's mind more fully if they're actually all in more full time. You know, on the thing, it's weird if you have five people building a thing together, one of them is putting all their life force into it and four of them are very part time. It's a bit weird to try and make it egalitarian. Each of us is 20% voting rights for this purpose. That's not the right fit.

Vision Battlesword [00:47:36]:
I have experienced something very like that.

Mark Boughton [00:47:38]:
Yeah, that's totally not the. Not the right model.

Vision Battlesword [00:47:42]:
Yeah.

Mark Boughton [00:47:42]:
And for that one individual who is putting more in to say I get it's my choice and I can write it down and I don't need any input from you is also not right because the rest of the individuals involved, they're not going to feel as inspired to bring their fullest life force, their absolute best to it.

Vision Battlesword [00:47:59]:
Totally.

Mark Boughton [00:48:00]:
So there's a dance of conversation, co creation and the clarification of expectations such that it's all mapped out in a really explicit manner. Can be really effective.

Vision Battlesword [00:48:10]:
Yeah, because if you, if it's kind.

Mark Boughton [00:48:12]:
Of implicit and fuzzy it creates inefficiency and ambiguity when it comes to any business or like collaborative project. I have a strong bias towards clarity and things being explicit rather than operating based on assumption and implicit norms and unspoken expectations of each other.

Vision Battlesword [00:48:32]:
Totally agree. There's something I'm noticing in your languaging here which I think is really interesting and that I would, I hope we maybe have some time to explore which is around masculine versus feminine perspectives Approaches, methodologies and so forth. But before I open that can of worms, I want to come back to my original question, which is I agree with everything you just said and still I want to know if you have any ideas about how is that shared purpose actually created. Like all of everything you said about it being important to be explicit about it, clear, codify it early, make sure everyone's actually aligned to it, invested in it, et cetera, that it's like meaningful to everyone and not just like one person's purpose that gets imposed on everyone else. Yes. So how do you create a shared purpose among two or more people?

Mark Boughton [00:49:29]:
It's a good question. For me, it gets back to the purpose being profoundly personal thing to give one process would be inefficient in dishonoring the unique and personal nature of purpose in that. If I say, oh well, it's simple. You pray and you ask God to talk through you. And purpose. You pray hard enough, long enough, purpose will come through. If someone doesn't believe in God, has never prayed, and is not sold on prayer as a valid thing, that's totally the wrong advice. And if people have a deep, preexisting relationship and a lot of trust and rapport, the recipe for them to find their purpose is different than if you have a group of strangers that are coming together for the first time.

Mark Boughton [00:50:16]:
So I think being aware of the context really, really matters. That's like one, I guess, preface or one thing to consider. And then in terms of the ways that purpose generally comes through, I think there are a couple that I have experienced and experimented with that seem most effective. One is prayer, journaling, meditation, sitting, asking a question and just sitting in silence and waiting for. Waiting for wisdom to come through. Antigens using psychedelics be really powerful for purpose work. Yeah, I think there's also something to priming your psyche to be able to have purpose clarity in that often one's psych. If one's ego structure is not prepared adequately, purpose can actually be confronting and uncomfortable.

Mark Boughton [00:51:07]:
So there's some sort of subconscious resistance to clarifying purpose. For example, I have someone has a marriage and family and they got some financial stress and they feel this internal sense of stress, but they have a job and they don't like their job. Intuitively they feel it's not their life's highest purpose, but it's alleviating their financial stress. So they don't want to mess with the status quo. If they woke up tomorrow and God said directly to them, here is your life's highest purpose. No ambiguity. This Is exactly it. That's so destabilizing.

Mark Boughton [00:51:45]:
Because now the thing that they were doing, the strategy of their job that they didn't like, well, that was alleviating their financial stress and concerns. And now they've got this gift of purpose. Like, shit, now I have to quit my job, which amplifies my financial stress, right? So their life as a whole and their psyche is actually not prepared for purpose to come through. This is one example. There's so many more. I have personal example of this. I have some. Historically, I've had some workaholism tendencies where I push myself too much, too hard.

Mark Boughton [00:52:16]:
And there was a time where I was thinking, what's my purpose? And I think my subconscious was like, Mark, I'm not going to let you see your purpose because if you see it, you're going to work even more in pursuit of it. And I want to keep you in balance and homeostasis and well being. So I'm not going to let you see your purpose. Pray as much as you like, meditate as much as you like. I'm not letting it in. It was like some child part that was doing its best to keep the system safe. So it inhibited me from really seeing purpose. So I think the more you can address any of these underlying psychological barriers, the more purpose will speak to you in an elegant and clear.

Mark Boughton [00:52:54]:
It comes to you effectively when you prime and prepare your psyche.

Vision Battlesword [00:52:58]:
Well, what about. So at the level of, let's say a small group of humans, maybe up to eight, 10, a dozen people, let's say, one could at least imagine there being a process. Maybe it involves entheogens or psychedelics, maybe it involves a workshop with whiteboards. Who knows? But one could imagine a process where you could get a group of people together and really do like a person purpose creation session, let's just say, or something like some process. But eventually you start to get to levels of scale where what do you do with a large company that now has hundreds or even thousands of contributors, employees, multilevels of management, et cetera. In those cases in our world, in our Western civilization today anyway, the individual contributor in a company of that size, let's say, doesn't have an opportunity to contribute to the purpose itself. They just, they're consumers of the purpose. Here's our mission statement.

Vision Battlesword [00:54:03]:
Here's our company's goals, here's our company's objectives. Do you like it or not?

Mark Boughton [00:54:08]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:54:08]:
Here's a job, right? So what do we do with situations like that? What do we. What do we do when organizations start to get to. And I know you referenced Holacracy and maybe that's part of the answer, or other new paradigm organizational structures like that. But what do you do when you get larger and larger and larger? We could even look at, you know, at the level of cities and states and nations. How do people have a sense of alignment to shared purpose even when they haven't had the opportunity to be a part of the process of creating that purpose?

Mark Boughton [00:54:47]:
Yeah, I think operating inside of hierarchical paradigm assume it's true that the people who are more competent are higher up the hierarchy. This is not always the case. Often it is, but not always. Assuming that's true and that I have some say in who is above me in the hierarchy, who I am choosing to follow, and inside of a company that's true. Often you can, you don't like the people above you on the hierarchy, you can leave if you, you know, have the opportunity to find another job, whatever.

Vision Battlesword [00:55:20]:
Or there can be ways to influence organizational change even from a contributor level, let's just say.

Mark Boughton [00:55:27]:
Yeah, but yeah, inside of like conventional management hierarchy, ideally the people higher up dialogue deeply and intentionally around purpose for the level that they are able to influence inside of the organization. Right. Maybe only the CEO and like the people at the very top can influence the North Star and actually move it. The people at the level beneath that, like higher level managers, they can influence the purpose of their department and then people closer to the ground can influence a smaller purpose inside of the organization. But yeah, I think it's electing good people and creating dialogue, I guess, at different levels of the organization. That's so interesting. As I answer this, I went so deep down the rabbit hole of studying different systems of self organized thought in the context of business that the concept of conventional management hierarchy, it's like I have to put on a certain lens so that I could even say this. I'm like, this is how it's done in conventional management hierarchy traditionally I think.

Mark Boughton [00:56:32]:
But I've like gone so deep down the rabbit hole that I'm like, like, you know, I think there's a better way to do it based on some of the models that I've encountered and studied and actually created businesses inside of like Holacracy.

Vision Battlesword [00:56:44]:
Well, that's what I'm looking for. I mean that's, that's the whole conversation. We've been, you and me have been having this conversation for multiple years now. Yeah. And this, this is the conversation for me is when we start, you know, breaking into new thought and New ideas or new paradigms of how we could do this. And that's really the question I'm asking, more so than how have we done this? Is how could we do this? How could it look? You know, I can certainly tell you about what it did look like for me. I worked for several companies in my prior career that were thousands of employees. You know, the most recent company I worked for was 3,000 employees, publicly traded Fortune 1000, big company, you know, billions of dollars of revenue.

Vision Battlesword [00:57:31]:
And it looked very similar to what you just described. Meaning what I just heard you. The two structures that I heard you articulating just now are meritocratic, achievement based and democratic, you know, election based. Election based, yeah. And then I think there's also a third system in there that's very prominent or prevalent in our existing corporate structures, which is rules based as well. And so I think those three systems are kind of interacting and creating complex expressions through our. There are various forms of hierarchy that can, can have different ways that they express themselves or ways that they, they internally configure and reconfigure. But that one of those last things that you said in your, in your previous statement was the most interesting to me, which was how do we initiate and foster dialogue at different levels of an organization? Because it's become clear to me through my experience that there is an element of hierarchy that is necessary to manage a large organization.

Vision Battlesword [00:58:48]:
And you could call it a holarchy. Right? I mean we can, we can create new ideas around multilevel management systems that are holocratic instead of, let's say, traditionally hierarchical. Cool, interesting conversations. But at some point we've got the manifestation of an organization at scale that looks fractal in some way. So what's interesting to me is this idea that you're kind of bringing up, and I was reflecting it back to my most recent experience in this 3,000 employee organization, which is where does purpose come from? I think traditionally what we find is that it comes from a top down approach, which is interesting because that also reflects back to like divinely inspired and all of the historical artifacts of that. But it comes from the top down in this case, not necessarily from God in a for profit organization, but it comes from the board or it comes from the owners, maybe it comes from the shareholders, but usually not. It may come from a chief executive or an executive level or team that have been delegated that responsibility to create purpose by again some ownership structure, but then it trickles down through the organization. It's.

Vision Battlesword [01:00:15]:
I have never seen in A large organization, even in a small one. To my recollection, I've never seen the top level executive management even ask the individual contributor, or let's say management level, what do you think our purpose should be? How would you suggest that we evolve our purpose? Maybe we started this company 20 years ago with this purpose in mind, and now here we are, 20 years later with all this growth that we've experienced and the marketplace and the world has changed. What do you think our purpose should be now? How does this company and your role in it align with or relate to your personal purpose? And what aspect of your personal purpose would you like to see represented here? Those are interesting questions. Doesn't mean you're going to. This doesn't mean that whatever it is that you say in response is going to become incorporated into the company's charter or mission statement. But it would be interesting to at least be asked to have the opportunity to give that input. And wouldn't it also be interesting if I'm the CEO of a company, to at least hear what those, the answers to those questions are and take it into account? Dialogue.

Mark Boughton [01:01:35]:
Kind of think about it like the North Star, the higher purpose of an organization. It's like a bit like the Titanic, you know, it's hard to move, and it's less like a little mini speed boat that you can just turn 90 degrees really fast, really easily. Really lot of flexible flexibility and agility, right? So the North Star, it's a, it's a little bit like a giant boat. It's a Titanic, and it should be because it's keeping everything moving in a consistent direction. If it pivoted 90 degrees every month, every quarter, every day, it would be so, so much disarray. Right? Or if a large organization changes its purpose by 90 degrees, that's like a total reorganization, reconfiguration of everything the whole way down the org chart. It's a, it's a lot of. It's a high cost, right.

Mark Boughton [01:02:27]:
High expense. So it should be. Maybe it pivots a little bit one degree this way, a couple degrees this way, but it's mostly moving in the same direction. But as you get closer to different, like lower levels of the organization, more foundational levels of the organization, it's a little more like a speedboat. All right, this is our team. There's six of us. And our purpose is to keep the marketing department functioning, creative on brand and communicating clear and compelling content to the marketplace. That's like the purpose statement of a marketing department with six people that can Change.

Mark Boughton [01:03:03]:
There's six of us on the team. Okay, great, let's, let's dialogue around it. Hey, let's improve the language for our purpose this way that actually feels more accurate and more exciting for everyone in the department. We can have the authority to make these changes, but it's our smaller speed boat. It doesn't change the North Star of where we're all trying to get right. So I think there's some way of fostering communication between different levels of an organization such that the six person marketing team isn't just 100% autonomously changing their purpose. They're doing it in dialogue with the North Star and the people that are closer to the North Star. Right.

Mark Boughton [01:03:41]:
Making sure it's, it's on brand, it's on purpose, it's, it's aligned with any potential changes at the executive level. So I think there can be a way of creating effective communication. And in Holacracy, they, they do it by having one individual that is responsible for communicating on behalf of a team. So you got our six person marketing department with one person who it's their role to communicate to other departments in the organization. There's one individual in each of those departments that they can dialogue with. That way you don't have all these complex lines of communication between different groups and teams. So I think that's one model that I've seen be effective around this because I think what inspires people to bring their best to their work and to really care about it is feeling a sense of agency and autonomy. Like their voice matters and they can have a say in, in things.

Mark Boughton [01:04:34]:
Now if I'm the janitor of hospital, maybe I don't get to make a major decision around budget and who we're going to fire. That's not, that's not my role. But I have 100% authority around how I do my role. What products, cleaning products we use, how things are cleaned. You know, I'm, I'm in charge of it and I feel a sense of ownership and pride and authority to make decisions within certain parameters. And this is my role's North Star, my department's North Star and I care about it. And there's a felt sense of ownership and it's not just a false pretense or, you know, pretend invitation. It's actually given to the individual.

Mark Boughton [01:05:17]:
Hey, you, total authority to do anything within these parameters and you actually have the authority, right? No one's going to come in and say you can't do this as long as you're operating inside of These parameters. I think that has. People take a lot of ownership for their. For their work when they. When they feel like they get to make it their own in a way. And it's. It's easier to do if you segment different levels or teams or circles inside of the broader circle.

Vision Battlesword [01:05:42]:
Yeah, that totally makes sense to me. And I think there's something here in the distinction between roles and responsibilities and purpose, and then also. Or scope of authority as well, and purpose. And also what I'm sensing that we're getting at here, we're scraping away until we're like. We're kind of getting to the heart of the issue. There's something about specificity or granularity of purpose where, like your point about the Titanic. Well, maybe not the Titanic, because that's got a. There's something different about that connotation.

Vision Battlesword [01:06:20]:
But the. Let's say the cruise ship, the thing about the cruise ship versus non sinking cruise ship, non sinking, totally floating cruise ship. But anyway, the large, you know, ocean liner versus the small speedboat, that point is very well taken. This. The ocean liner doesn't turn on a dime. It can't turn on a dime. And if we started yanking the wheel back and forth in different directions, it would just create chaos for everybody on board. That's obvious, and that makes sense.

Vision Battlesword [01:06:47]:
And yet at the same point, what if there's an iceberg? We do have to be able to adapt to changing conditions and changing environments. And our purpose could change, you know, over time as the world changes or as maybe even the population of our organization changes in terms of who these people are and what they believe and what's important to them that could maybe have an influence on where. The direction we want to take this company and all that stuff. So there's got to be some kind of balance that gets struck there. But then there's also something about the hierarchical or multilevel nature of roles and responsibilities and scopes of authority within the organization, as well as the purpose itself. Where, like, at the very, very top level of an organization, the purpose probably shouldn't be so specific that it doesn't feel like it fits if certain conditions change in a quarter or in a year, that we've got to be changing it all the time to keep in alignment with reality. And also that, you know, if people's roles and responsibilities lower in the organization change, that they can't seem to be in alignment with it. So, like, I'm thinking of something like the Janitor, where a part of the organization's purpose could be Something as nonspecific as we take pride in everything that we do and we produce, everything that we produce is the highest, of the highest level of quality that we can.

Vision Battlesword [01:08:16]:
As a janitor, I can get behind that. You know, even doing janitorial services, I could also get behind that. In marketing, I can get behind that. You know what I mean? So there's, like, elements of purpose that I think seem to be. There's something important between purpose and values, or at the very least, that the purpose and the directionality of where we're going is general enough that it doesn't need to change, but rarely. And that a lot of different, more specific and more granular roles and responsibilities can all roll up under it. And then there's also that piece that you mentioned about the connective tissue between the top and the bottom. And like, how does an individual department of six people or the janitorial services, how does that trickle up if people are allowed to align their individual purposes in ways that make sense to them and the contribution that they're making on the ground? But how do we make sure that the marketing department, for example, doesn't, as you say, start creating an individual purpose that is now wildly out of alignment? Like, our purpose is to do the most avant garde, you know, cutting edge.

Mark Boughton [01:09:36]:
Because we're artists, and that's fun for us. Right, right, right.

Vision Battlesword [01:09:40]:
That's. Sure, there's a sense in which that you could make a connection between that and quality of product, but that's not what really what we meant, or that's not really what we mean. There's got to be some arbiter of that, the connective tissue, you know, that somehow keeps those purposes at least coherent, you know, at different levels of the organization. So I think that's the piece that you're talking about with effective communication and effective dialogue. Like, that's the piece that I have seen needs a lot of help in traditionally structured organizations that I've been a part of.

Mark Boughton [01:10:21]:
Yeah, I think when we are. When a group of humans are encountering challenges, there are a couple main ways that you can resolve those challenges and create something more effective. One is that we make changes on a relational level. So we dialogue, we talk through whatever's here. I share my perspective, my feelings, you share yours. We get each other's world and is a pro social, relational solution to certain problems that could be helpful and effective. And other times, we can solve whatever problems are arising for us through structural changes. So we're not actually talking about our feelings or relationship as much.

Mark Boughton [01:11:05]:
We're creating agreements and systems and processes and structures and putting them in place to solve for the problems that are here and they can actually go away overnight. A really simple example is like two people start dating, they don't have any explicit agreements whatever. At some point they start to have tensions and challenges interpersonally. Well, maybe you need to talk about your feelings and get through that. Or maybe you need some clear agreements of like, all right, we're not going to have sex with other people and until we talk about it otherwise and you know, here's some additional agreements and we both feel good about it. Great structure. And now a lot of the problem kind of goes away, right? You don't need to process it forever. You just need clear agreements in place and that kind of solves it for you.

Mark Boughton [01:11:47]:
So I think inside of an organization, the larger the business, the more the need for structures, systems and explicit clarity. There is. It's just the two of us building a business. It's good to have agreements and clear structure, but it's way more necessary if there's a hundred of us building the business, right? Way more complexity to manage. And how you manage complexity is partly through clear systems and processes and, and agreements, right? So one thing I've noticed is that sometimes entrepreneurs prematurely over engineer systems and structures based on anticipated problems, right? Which I think is kind of the old paradigm hierarchical approach and way of thinking rather than in a more iterative evolutionary manner that addresses real problems and create. Creates elegant and sometimes temporary solutions. If you think about a business as like a living organism, it changes and grows. So what it needs when it has six employees is very different than 60, than 600.

Mark Boughton [01:12:50]:
Right. And one of the challenges with conventional management hierarchy is once something is put in place, it's really hard to change. Right? This is why a lot of organizations do like a huge reorg once a year, once every two years, whatever frequency. And they look at all the roles, they talk to everyone, they hire consultants to help with that process. And then they, they take the org chart and they throw it out and they build a new one they redesigned and it's arduous and pain in the ass and people don't like it. And people have to adjust the new structure and it's very inefficient. So misuse of energy and resource, you have to do that. If there's no elegant and simple strategy through which iterative improvement, improvement can occur inside of the organization, which is what I love about Holacracy and some systems of self organization, you don't need to do a giant reorg that disrupts everything.

Mark Boughton [01:13:43]:
Because at any moment, in any time, anyone in the organization is empowered and has clear, has a clear pathway to bring their attentions and offer their contribution to how the organization can be structured even more effectively based on real problems and real challenges that people are encountering. And it's so outside of the paradigm of thought for conventional hierarchical business, especially people that have succeeded at the game of conventional business and management hierarchy. The more one is established in that way of thinking, the harder it is to even conceive of something as flexible and innovative as a system like Holacracy or self organization.

Vision Battlesword [01:14:24]:
Yeah, this is another one of those cases where I see a false binary being discussed sometimes where it seems like people often fall into this. It's either one way or the other and it's either monolithic, it's fully designed, it's a project planned, it's hierarchical, whatever it is, all the infrastructure right off the bat, or it's agile, it's nimble, it's cross that bridge when we come to it, it's hyper flexible or ready, fire, aim, like you know, whatever. And you know, I agree with you that I think, I think what you're saying at least is that there's really no reason that it couldn't be both and that would probably be better, or that there's probably some dialectical synthesis that we could come to where it's like, okay, here are some things that are known, here are some known pitfalls, some known challenges. Probably best to have some basic structures, rules, administration, whatever that is before you get started because you are going to trip over this almost immediately and it's going to come up, but don't solve for things that don't solve for some of these other things that may never come up or that at very least aren't relevant now and would actually be a waste of resources currently because they're solving for a problem that doesn't exist, but instead put in place a process, like you say, an iterative process that checks for, detects and creates solutions to problems as they occur. That sounds brilliant. And then also, you know, there could be some level of planning for certain milestones of scale. Like hey, we know I could predict that when I hit 10 employees, I'm going to need a system more robust than what I have now, as well as when I hit 100 employees or when I hit six teams or whatever it is that that looks like for this particular organization design, meaning I don't have to run out there with no plan at all. But I also don't have to run out there, you know, with a monolithic structure that can scale to a thousand employees while I'm still employee number one, you know, working for myself.

Vision Battlesword [01:16:49]:
That just makes perfect sense to me. I have so many other questions that I wanted to ask, especially on the language. But I know that you've got, you know, you've got to wrap this up. So I just want to kind of offer you the last word. Whatever. If there's anything that feels important to you about purpose that you haven't yet gotten to share, if you feel called to give us a little freestyle as a way of wrapping it up or. Or if you feel complete. Totally up to you.

Mark Boughton [01:17:22]:
No, it's great. Thank you for the invitation and the conversation feels so satisfying to be in the co creation and discovery of purpose. And you know, sometimes when I talk in the mic, I get nervous, but then I'm like, can I really live to serve this highest purpose? Yes. We deserve this. It's so beautiful to do Just driving right through oh don't panic, don't sink Titanic so gigantic okay, not going to panic no Cuz we can be agile Small boat okay. It's not something that I wrote down oh man we can throw down with the sound of the microphone Then I might go home Cuz I got some things to do but oh man it's also true and I'm just grateful for you and the ways that we can play yeah hey maybe purpose comes when I pray I say it's all a okay and hey oh today it's so wonderful to let purpose move through me Truly it feels so groovy we can get in that flow state and you know it's oh so great can't wait to be in the flow all the time so I suppose we can just compose some sublime rhymes and find a way so divine to say and I'm just grateful for you hosting and bringing so much yeah truly I'll just be boasting singing your praises because man, you amaze this man. God damn. Okay.

Mark Boughton [01:18:31]:
We cannot pre plan too much so clutch we got such possibility in store and I like the ways that you serve this community that's for sure I'm bringing unity and we just knock on the door Yes, I do a door all the things that you bring okay my brother, my king here we go let's just sing on this mic and yeah what else do I have to say Tonight I'm just grateful to play with language and to be in the intellectual discovery Because Yo, I can see that we can just hover above the purpose that wants to be known as. We refuse to be clones. Here we go. Yes. Fully grown. And now we can just not bemoan the fact that God wants us to create and serve, but be grateful, that's for sure. Like what? Dude? Thank you.

Vision Battlesword [01:19:22]:
That's amazing, man. You just freaking pull that out.

Mark Boughton [01:19:26]:
Wow.

Vision Battlesword [01:19:27]:
Wow. Thank you so much. This has been an honor. I've been looking forward to it for a long time, and I hope you had so much fun that you want to come back and do it again real soon.

Mark Boughton [01:19:37]:
Oh, dude. So rich. Really? I always enjoy our conversations, and it feels like there's so much inquiry and discovery as we get into it. There's just so much new territory to explore.

Vision Battlesword [01:19:48]:
So, yeah.

Mark Boughton [01:19:49]:
Grateful for you and for the opportunity.

Vision Battlesword [01:19:51]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love the vibes that we create when our minds just reflect off each other. It's. I don't know. Yeah, it's like a huge amplification for me every time. I'm really, really grateful for you. Thanks a lot.

Mark Boughton [01:20:07]:
Thanks, man.