Michael Hollinger [00:00:00]:
What's up, guys? Welcome back to Awakened Kings. And today we have Vision battle sword. Welcome to the show, Vision.

Vision Battlesword [00:00:08]:
What's up, Michael?

Michael Hollinger [00:00:10]:
So I brought Vision onto the show because he has created a new model for relating called intentional autonomous relating. And the first thing that I like about, well, there's a lot of things, like about the many words you have in this intentional and autonomous and relating. But I like how, first off, it's about relating as a verb and not a relationship, as if I'm in a relationship, which talk about that a little bit, like the difference between being in a relationship and relating with somebody.

Vision Battlesword [00:00:40]:
Yeah, well, you hit the nail on the head. It's about doing versus being. You know, it's one of the most core fundamental principles of IAR. To me. It was kind of a big, I don't know, frame switch for me, when I realized that when we talk about being in a relationship, we're identifying ourselves with what is essentially a dynamic where we're giving away a part of ourself or part of our identity. In a way. When you think of that, for me, it's just been a really, really big reframe and upgrade to think of all of my relationships as something that I'm doing. They're a process.

Vision Battlesword [00:01:25]:
So I like to say, and this is what I teach in my workshops and coaching and trainings with IAR, is that a relationship is something that we have with each other. It's not something that we are or are in. So, yeah, a relationship is a dynamic. It's a process. It evolves. It's in a state of change, and it's not something that is inherently a part of us as a person.

Michael Hollinger [00:01:52]:
I like that. The other thing I like about a IAR, the intentional autonomous relating, is we're always relating with people. And so for men especially, it can seem like, okay, I'm in a relationship with a woman now, or maybe I've got relationships with men, but we're just relating. And there's no, like, whether I'm in a relationship or not in a relationship, we're always relating one way or the other. So it's kind of creating this gradient of, like, let's get clear on. And intentional ultimately was. And that's what part of intentional autonomous relating is. Be very intentional about what? How we are relating at many levels, whether it's men to men, men to women, and vice versa.

Michael Hollinger [00:02:34]:
And so talk about. I guess what I'd like to know first off is where did this idea of IAR come from? So, I mean, this is something you've been working on for a while, I'm sure. So where did, where did it start for you?

Vision Battlesword [00:02:48]:
So, for me, IAR started when I came out of my second marriage, and I've been doing this kind of serial monogamy thing for my entire adult life. And, you know, I've had many great relationships. I've been married twice, and, you know, I've had two very different marriages. They had two very different divorces. But there were a lot of common themes that I was noticing in the relationships that I was having with women specifically. And one of those themes was codependency. One of those themes was jealousy. One of those themes was dissatisfaction in different ways.

Vision Battlesword [00:03:30]:
And when I came out of my second marriage, I just decided, I'm not doing this again. I'm going to do something different, not just repeat the same pattern. I was really, really committed to that, but I didn't know exactly what I was doing. I didn't know exactly what is the new thing that I was going to do. But I had an intuition that it started from setting my intentions very specifically. So being more intentional, being more conscious of what exactly is it that I want from relationships with people generally, that was kind of the key insight. It's like, oh, wait, I would actually, I'm not looking for a woman. I'm not looking for a partner.

Vision Battlesword [00:04:16]:
I'm not looking for a new marriage or a new wife. Let's say I would like to just have fulfilling, intimate, deep, rich, interesting relationships with people, people in general. And I'm completely open to who those people could be and what they could be like. But what I really want in my life right now is a deep human connection, more than love or sex or partnership or, you know, any of the things that we would traditionally associate with the, quote unquote relationship, which I hate that word, you know, rather, I hate the fact that people use that word in such a sloppy way either to mean some very, very specific thing, even though that word really refers to a whole lot of different things, or just in a completely ambiguous way.

Michael Hollinger [00:05:09]:
Even so, more like a situationship now is like, it's even more ambiguous. We can't even define it.

Vision Battlesword [00:05:15]:
Right. Right. So, yeah, that was the first intuition that I had was, okay, I'm going to set my sights on connection, connection and intimacy with humans first, and just see where that leads. And where it led was this kind of entire new way of looking at relationships altogether.

Michael Hollinger [00:05:37]:
I noticed you still say relationships. It's like even though you're talking about relating, you still call it relationships.

Vision Battlesword [00:05:44]:
Sure. Yeah. I mean, what would be the alternative? To say I have relations?

Michael Hollinger [00:05:50]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:05:51]:
Relatings.

Michael Hollinger [00:05:51]:
Well, I don't know. I was, when I was reading some of your material, I thought that was a part of the model is looking at the difference between a relationship and relating. So I was just guess, unclear about what you mean by that. If it's you still determined to say that you're in a relationship with someone, if you're already relating with them.

Vision Battlesword [00:06:09]:
Well, if we're relating, then we have some kind of a relationship. But I think the key distinction for me is that a relationship is not something you are or something you're in, but it's something you do and it's something you have. That's kind of the bit flip for me.

Michael Hollinger [00:06:25]:
And every second is a choice.

Vision Battlesword [00:06:26]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we're always choosing and we're always deciding what kind of relationship would we like to have? What parts of this are working for us or not working for us? And really what are our intentions here with and for each other? What, what needs are we trying to get met or would we like to meet for each other? What are our desires? What are our, you know, what are the things that we enjoy about each other and really focusing in on that.

Michael Hollinger [00:06:57]:
Yeah. And I like how you just mentioned desires, but you even go so far as to create these different channels of desire. And you talked to me about this. I don't know, maybe it was about a year ago, I think. And what really hit home for me is even separating the difference between intimacy and sex. And I think this is a big one that a lot of people get confused, especially men, is they're like, oh, if I'm intimate with a woman, then we're having sex. And I've got all kinds of friendships with women. And where I feel like I'm intimate with, I'm having very deep conversations, sharing my soul with, really sharing deep secrets and things that I get to, you know, look for maybe a feminine perspective on.

Michael Hollinger [00:07:39]:
And I'm sharing my heart with. I feel like that is an intimate relationship, but there is no way going to be sex with that woman. And so I really appreciate that distinction. The channels that you're talking about where you get to decide where you want to relate with someone, where'd you come up with these channels?

Vision Battlesword [00:07:54]:
You know, a big part of it started with a conversation I was actually having with a friend of mine. I'm not sure if it's someone that you know. Do you know Jackson Sullivan?

Michael Hollinger [00:08:05]:
The name sounds familIAR, but I don't think I know him.

Vision Battlesword [00:08:07]:
I think a big part of it came from a conversation I was having with him when I was just trying to break down for him what this new thing is that I'm doing. And I was. I was doing it very intuitively, and I didn't have a system for it. I didn't have a lot of definition for it, but I just. It was, it just felt. It felt very different in terms of the way that I was seeking to have relating and relationships with people and especially women. And, yeah, there was just some particular point in a conversation where I started breaking it down and realizing the level of granularity that I was starting to approach things with in terms of separating things that usually we take as a given that tend to come together as a package. And I kind of call this the romantic partnership package or the romantic life partner package.

Vision Battlesword [00:09:03]:
And what we tend to assume about a type of relationship that we're trying to have with someone or someone's, depending on what your preferences are, is that it's a loving, affectionate, intimate, sexual partnership. And we kind of take all of that together and we call that, that's what happens when you unpack the word romantic. It seems to me. I think that's really where it started for me, was unpacking that word and trying to figure out, like, well, what exactly do we mean when we say, well, I'm looking for something romantic or I'm not. I'm looking for like a just friendship or something along those lines. And I think sometimes we include friendship as part of romance as well. But I think sometimes we don't necessarily feel that's necessary. But for me, it was just a huge awakening when I recognized the difference, the distinctions between love, sex, intimacy and affection, how these are actually four very different things.

Vision Battlesword [00:10:09]:
They don't have to come as a package, and in fact, many times it's better if they don't. Yeah, but in particular, being able to separate out sex from intimacy and affection in particular, I think it opens up a lot more richness of our relationships that we can have with each other. And it takes a lot of pressure off relationships sometimes in a lot of ways. And I think it also opens up the possibility for a lot of enjoyment that we can have where sometimes I think we restrict ourselves in those ways because we think, well, intimacy inherently is a part of sex, or intimacy inherently leads to sex or affection likewise. But to me, intimacy just means knowing someone very deeply, you know, sharing some sharing with your, sharing yourself with someone in a vulnerable way. That's what intimacy means to me.

Michael Hollinger [00:11:02]:
Yeah, 100%. I love that. And the love, affection, and intimacy being separate from sex. I can see where, you know, it's said that not many women can orgasm. And I can see where if there's more attention to the love, affection and intimacy we be for even the sex, that there's absolutely more safety and being willing to submit and being, allowing to like, fall into that orgasmic state. And, I mean, to me, sex doesn't have to be scary then at that point because it's just a natural part of the next step. And to me, I think it is the last step. It's the very last step of, like, we've done all these other things now it just feels natural to flow it right into that, into this relationship.

Vision Battlesword [00:11:44]:
It makes sense to me. You know, I mean, that's, that's kind of how I like for my relationships to develop. I wouldn't necessarily say it has to be that way for everybody. I think there can be different strokes for different folks, no pun intended. But I want to bring it back to, like, our needs as men.

Michael Hollinger [00:12:02]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:12:02]:
Like, we have needs for intimacy. We have needs for affection and love. And I think that oftentimes gets all tied up in sex for us as well. And it's certainly, you know, I've talked with and had workshops with many women, and that's a big, I don't want to say problem, but that's a common mindset that women have as they're going through life as well, is that they may be wanting intimacy, but having a sense that that comes as a package with sex, especially in terms of what men are desiring from them.

Michael Hollinger [00:12:40]:
Yeah, but, and there's too many men, I think, who are absorbed in porn where it's like sex seems to be the first thing. And there's, you know, it's almost like a disconnected form of sex where it's like lacking that intimacy and the affection and the love and so, yeah, I think there's a lot of reprogramming we get to help men understand. And, yeah, so going back, I mean, that really, really hit home because that was about a year ago when you, when you broke that apart for me, the, the intimacy in sex, and I've never been the same since that. Like that. Just that one distinction of bringing apart that one thing has changed, really, my whole outlook on that. So could, can, can you name those channels just so, like, the audience understands what we're talking about?

Vision Battlesword [00:13:22]:
Sure. Yeah. In the basic IAR, that's intentional, autonomous, relating framework, I've got what I call ten channels of relating. So you can kind of think of these as, like, radio channels or the different. Different kind of conduits that we can exchange energy in. And so those are connection, affection, intimacy, love, sex, friendship, partnership, family, spirituality, and mentoring. And I kind of like to look at this as when I'm teaching this to people or kind of introducing them to the concept for the first time. Kind of think of, like, what we've been given generally in our culture and all throughout our lives, is like a menu with three options on it, you know, more or less.

Vision Battlesword [00:14:12]:
It's like, if you go to the restaurant, it's like, well, would you like the chicken or the fish? Or maybe the vegetarian option? Like, that's all you get. And I'm suggesting, like, we can actually order these things a la carte. You can have any kind of relationship that you want, even if it's not what we would consider to be traditional or typical. And I don't say non traditional, kind of in the sense of, you know, this kind of modern, maybe sexual promiscuity or polyamory or something like that. Although I do believe in polyamory in the sense of sharing a lot of love with a lot of people. Totally my jam. But I'm saying more along the lines of, what if me and you, Michael, what if our ideal relationship is a really strong connection, and we share a lot in the spiritual realm, and maybe we actually have a lot of love for each other, and one of us wants to mentor the other, but we don't necessarily consider each other to be friends. We're not particularly intimate or affectionate with each other.

Vision Battlesword [00:15:19]:
We're not sexual. Like, that's okay. That can be a thing. But we don't necessarily have a name for that or a word for that in our culture. Like, what is that? Well, who cares? It's the thing that me and you do. That's how IAR works, is like, what's the thing that me and you do? Let's put that together, let's define that, let's talk about it and get clear on what it is. And then we can repeat that conversation anytime we want. Anytime it feels like something wants to change.

Michael Hollinger [00:15:49]:
Beautiful. I love that. And I like how it's always a choice. So even in any given, like, any given relationship, we look at something like divorce or something like that, where it's like, hey, this container is no longer working for us. We can step away, and now we can choose new relations, new relating, a new relationship where we gotta be co parenting so we wanna be friendships. We have a friendship here. We still kinda love each other. Cause the love will never go away.

Michael Hollinger [00:16:13]:
So there's all kinds of ways we can still change that channel to then onto that container. So talk a bit more about what a container is.

Vision Battlesword [00:16:20]:
Okay, well, a container is just a definition of our relationship that uses some specific terminology so that we can be very clear on it. And in particular, that's the ten channels that I talked about. And then there's three in my system, there's three levels of intention. So the intentions can be open, closed, or seeking. So depending on. And this is really just a way of having a structured conversation, and it's a way of kind of having a thought process about, well, what kind of relationship would we like to have? So open means I'm open to exploring. I'm open to having some type of relationship in that area. Closed means I'm nothing, you know, I would not like to share that type of experience with you or share that type of energy with you.

Vision Battlesword [00:17:10]:
And seeking means I'm actively pursuing it. Like I would. I would actually really like to have that. And I'm open to even initiating that with you if you're open to it. And so a container is kind of the sum total of our intentions. So whether we're open to open or open to seeking or seeking to seeking, then that would mean that we are expressing a desire to have a relationship in that area. Let's say to share affection with each other, or intimacy or friendship or anything like that. And then also included in the container is our boundaries and our agreements.

Vision Battlesword [00:17:46]:
So within the scope of those intentions, affection may mean something to you and it may mean something different to me. And so we want to have a conversation to get clear on. Okay, well, what exactly, you know, when you say you'd like to have an affectionate relationship, are we talking about regular cuddling, you know, or are we talking about a hug when we see each other? Or something else, you know, that feels good. The language that I like to use is what feels good and right and comfortable for both of us, whatever that is. Then we can have a boundary in that area, or we can have an agreement in that area. So a container is essentially a written, ideally, definition of the relationship that we're having right now.

Michael Hollinger [00:18:37]:
Interesting. Written. So you go as far as writing it down.

Vision Battlesword [00:18:40]:
I think it's important, actually. Yeah. Depending on the type of relationship that you're having.

Michael Hollinger [00:18:45]:
Yeah, yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:18:47]:
I don't maintain written containers and agreements with every single person that I'm relating with. Obviously. But, like, your serious relationships, you would. And that doesn't just mean, serious relationship doesn't just mean, you know, someone that you're having sex with or in a partnership with. It could mean, like, you know, strong, long lasting friendships might deserve that level of intention and attention to actually write some things down about your relationship that you want to make sure that you're both. Claire on.

Michael Hollinger [00:19:17]:
Yes. So in your workbook, you have all the channels, and you have, like, different levels. Each channel might be as an example. Do you have, like, a worksheet that you use for this? Like, put a number next to each one? Like, where are we on the love? Where are we on the spirituality and the mentorship?

Vision Battlesword [00:19:33]:
And I do.

Michael Hollinger [00:19:35]:
Yeah, of course you do. Yeah. That's why I asked. I figured you have something like that, you know? Yes. I would love to see that. That sounds because, I mean, I understand writing things down or writing all down, but it seems like it'd be easier to be, like, just put some numbers to it.

Vision Battlesword [00:19:49]:
Yeah. I've got a kind of a fill in the blank template that makes it easy, makes it much easier for people. And that's something that, you know, I kind of provide as part of my workshops or as part of my coaching or my consulting, you know, if I'm helping someone or people, you know, in a relationship or having a relationship. Ha, caught myself. But I also, I'm, I'm creating. I'm in the process of creating what I call an IAR journal, which essentially kind of takes the worksheet and distills it down to smaller, kind of more manageable pages in, like, why I like to think of it as, do you remember, you know, maybe back from, I think it was more popular in, like, the seventies and the eighties for people sometimes to have a little black book. Do you know what I'm talking about?

Michael Hollinger [00:20:40]:
I've heard of that, but, yeah, I'm not too familIAR.

Vision Battlesword [00:20:42]:
So, like, a little black book is this idea that I think a lot, mostly menta, would keep records of their conquests.

Michael Hollinger [00:20:48]:
Okay.

Vision Battlesword [00:20:49]:
It's like, ah, so and so slept with her on such and such date, you know, whatever. It's like my little black book. And I think contacts, like, people that you might want to go contact again. I like to think of the IAR journal as, like, the new paradigm little black book. It's like, the relationships that are really important to me, people that I actually really want to sit down with and have a conversation with to get really, really clear, because our relationship is valuable to me. I want to make sure that our boundaries and our agreements are like we've talked about them, and because I want to stay in integrity with them, and I want to avoid tension and conflict or just make sure that we, like, we're clear on where we stand with each other, and we can always go back to that if we ever wanted to refresh that for ourselves. Yeah, I'm creating different kind of tools for folks to use the system more in their daily life and to make it easier to integrate.

Michael Hollinger [00:21:50]:
Are you seeing, like, an app for the phone for this kind of thing?

Vision Battlesword [00:21:53]:
I certainly foresee that, yeah, I would like for that to be the direction that it goes.

Michael Hollinger [00:21:58]:
Yeah. You know, it's interesting, these words like intention and container, even closed open, it sounds to me and reminds me a lot of, like, plant medicine ceremony, and it just seems to me like you've brought some of that language into relationships. It's like we can be intentional. We can have this closed container, and there's, like, all this trust put into it. And so it's like bringing intention into how we're gonna lay it out in the world, which is kind of cool, because in plant medicine ceremony, it's like. It's almost like it's not in the quote unquote real world. It's, like, outside here. So now we're coming into the quote unquote real world where we're relating with people.

Michael Hollinger [00:22:37]:
We can bring that same technology of intention and being very. And how that relates to people. I love that.

Vision Battlesword [00:22:44]:
Right. No, that's exactly right. And I think that was, you know, one of the top five probably, like, kind of key insights that led to this whole thing, you know, the first one being, let's unpack romantic. What. What is that all about? What's in there? And are these different things that we can have with each other that don't have to come as a package? And then the idea of thinking of a relationship as a container was maybe the second or third of those kind of light bulb moments for me, where it's like, well, wait a second. We create a container for a retreat, for a ceremony, for a coaching, engagement, or any other type of business arrangement. Why would we not have a container for a relationship? It just makes sense. Hey, let's get clear.

Vision Battlesword [00:23:28]:
Let's have boundaries, agreements, expectations. Let's talk about things, you know, before they come up, rather than in a reactive mode.

Michael Hollinger [00:23:39]:
Yeah. Yeah. Especially the word intention. It comes in even, like, for intention for the day, intention for this podcast, intention for everything. It's just. And that's a practice I've been working on more and more is realizing how powerful it is, is to actually have the intention of what I'm doing. It's so easy to get lost in, like, you know, default mode and everything else, especially, you know, and when you're relating with somebody else, especially if two people kind of go off in default mode, and it's like, what are we doing now? So to remember, come back into. So I imagine it's super powerful for two people, especially in a relationship, to understand this language, because it is a whole language model.

Michael Hollinger [00:24:16]:
It's everything. It's. We speak differently in this model, I imagine, and how we talk to each other, a whole different model.

Vision Battlesword [00:24:23]:
It doesn't have to be as strict and formal, you know, as maybe the workbooks or, you know, kind of the way that we've been talking to each other just now. But, yeah, that is the idea of reprogramming through language. That actually is the idea. And I have noticed certainly, that there's a lot of the things that we've been told and the way. The way that we have been taught to, and not even really formally, because I think that's another kind of key piece of the puzzle here, is, like, we never really get the relationship talk, do we? I mean, you maybe get the sex talk, but does any, you know, when do we ever actually get taught?

Michael Hollinger [00:25:05]:
Well, it's basically like boyfriend, girlfriend, fiance, marriage.

Vision Battlesword [00:25:09]:
Yeah, but where did you get that idea?

Michael Hollinger [00:25:12]:
Yeah, from your parents or, like, just tv movies. That's. Yeah, you just kind of soak it.

Vision Battlesword [00:25:16]:
Up from the environment. Right. It's just, you just kind of get it through osmosis or what you saw models in your family of origin, maybe the way things played out in your peer.

Michael Hollinger [00:25:25]:
The best thing I had was the birds and the beast talk with my father. It's like, you're gonna get married, you're gonna have kids. Here's how you use your tool and blah, blah, blah. And then you're gonna have the white picket fence in the house and you're gonna, you know, have the car. And that's what we do.

Vision Battlesword [00:25:39]:
But not the part about, like, okay, so when you're dealing with conflict.

Michael Hollinger [00:25:43]:
Yeah, right.

Vision Battlesword [00:25:44]:
Or, like, here's how you process tension or, you know, talk about your feelings. You know, some of us got that through therapy or, you know, different, different avenues, but it's just not part of our basic training, our basic programming that we get. We just kind of pick it up from. From osmosis. And so, you know, I have started to kind of, like, look at the language that. That comprises our programming, the programming that we have received. And, yeah, I find it to be lacking. You know, I find it to be ambiguous.

Vision Battlesword [00:26:20]:
I find it to be actually, even intentionally manipulative or misdirecting in a lot of ways. Like, just take that one. It's one of the most powerful examples for just about everyone, myself included, is sex and intimacy. Yeah, we use those words not just interchangeably, but we use one actually as a disguise for the other. We're intimate now.

Michael Hollinger [00:26:44]:
We're intimate with each other. Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:26:45]:
There's so many different ways that we talk about sex without saying the word sex.

Michael Hollinger [00:26:49]:
Yeah. Like it was taboo. Even the word sexist taboo.

Vision Battlesword [00:26:52]:
Did you sleep with them? Did you hook up? Did you, you know, like, etc. Etcetera. We've got a thousand words to avoid saying what it really is. But yes, the whole idea of IaR is to help us to create a new program for ourselves through language. And then once we kind of have that, you know, once we. Once we've kind of absorbed and integrated that, then things can become more casual. But it's like nonviolent communication. Are you familIAR with non violent communication? It's the same kind of idea.

Vision Battlesword [00:27:26]:
There's a stage in the learning process where it can be helpful to be very formal with things until you've established a kind of muscle memory with it.

Michael Hollinger [00:27:37]:
Also, why it's important that the person you're relating with knows that language, too.

Vision Battlesword [00:27:43]:
Yeah.

Michael Hollinger [00:27:43]:
And they're willing to be formal at first. And then, and I can see this being, like, even an experiential type of retreat where, like, you're spending a couple of days going deep in the formality of all this. So it's like, really hammered into the mind, the body and the heart. And then when you come away, like, you can't help but not speak this new language. It's just in you at that point.

Vision Battlesword [00:28:02]:
Totally, totally. And it definitely is most powerful in my experience, with two people that are, you know, that are invested in the idea of it, that, like, sincerely, you know, want to try something new or embrace the concepts of it and speak the language. And also, it actually only takes one to tango with IAR. It works even if you're the. Even if you are only practicing it, which, again, is like NVC in that way, too. Like, the other person doesn't necessarily need to know anything about nonviolent communication. If you're practicing it, you can actually have a significant influence on the energy and the dynamic of the situation just from being empathetic. This is the exact same way.

Vision Battlesword [00:28:51]:
You just showing up and being clear, being intentional, asking questions about the other person's intentions, you know, expressing yourself and, like, what things really mean to you, it automatically has a transformative effect.

Michael Hollinger [00:29:09]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:29:09]:
On the dynamic.

Michael Hollinger [00:29:10]:
I can see that most people just want to be heard, and so if they're just, if they're just heard because you're using the right language, like, I see you. I hear you. I want you to tell me what you need. People like, oh, you actually hear me right now? Like, great, like, pull up a chair. Let me talk, you know? Yeah, that goes a long way.

Vision Battlesword [00:29:26]:
Yeah. And I've seen it, you know, in my own life many times without ever explaining anything about, oh, hey, by the way, I've created this new system and whatever, blah, blah, blah. But just, just speaking to people in a natural way, like, you know, hey, I just want to let you know right now, I'm not seeking sex in this moment, but I'm actually really enjoying our connection. I'd be open to sharing some affection with you right now if you're open to it. And what I mean by that is, you know, just, like, thinking maybe I could put my arm around you and we could just be a little closer together while we talk. But I just want to be clear. Like, I'm not seeking sex right now. I'm enjoying our connection.

Vision Battlesword [00:30:02]:
I'm open to developing intimacy. That's where I'm at. And I just used I our language in a perfectly textbook way. But it doesn't have to sound. It can sound totally natural, and people respond very, very well to it, is what I've noticed. People are very rarely, like, put off by it or suspicious of it, although it can happen. But normally, people are just like, whoa, you're a really good communicator. It's like, that was very clear.

Michael Hollinger [00:30:30]:
Yeah, it's on the words and the body language. I think, too, that there's a way to even use a IAR in a way where just knowing the channels and knowing what channel I want to show up in, because even that open, close seeking I can show with body language knowing, like, I'm creating a closed off. Like, I can be like, I'm closed to sex with you, and my body language shows that. But I'm open to affection or love or other channels. People can feel that, too.

Vision Battlesword [00:30:58]:
Yeah. And that, that kind of goes into the, I know you've had an opportunity to kind of look at most of the material all the way into the kind of more advanced concepts. But as you know, it goes much deeper down the rabbit hole than just the kind of behavioral channels, like what I talked about and the language, but also well into the energy system and how we relate with each other there as well. And that kind of like the unspoken relationship.

Michael Hollinger [00:31:26]:
Where do you see IAR going? Do you think you get the whole model figured out and done for now and you just really want to teach it, or is there more coming that you want to expand upon?

Vision Battlesword [00:31:37]:
There's more that I've developed kind of in my own life that I haven't formally baked into the curriculum or the pieces that I've been using kind of in my consulting practice for now. So where I see it going is, number one, I would like to get all the rest of that stuff kind of out of my head and onto paper and really organize the material that I have, I think, in something more that looks like a formal book as well as like an online curriculum.

Michael Hollinger [00:32:13]:
I was thinking about that when I was reading through it. I was like, this is a book.

Vision Battlesword [00:32:16]:
Yeah.

Michael Hollinger [00:32:17]:
I mean, it's definitely formalized, and you could definitely expand and make that a book.

Vision Battlesword [00:32:21]:
Yeah. And I certainly think there's enough material to warrant that. And that project is exciting to me. I really am. I would love to turn the worksheets and the whole process of how you have that conversation and create a container with someone to create some kind of software or some kind of app to facilitate that, like a software based tool. But the tool itself is not the thing. You can have the conversation. You can do this process with nothing more than a pen and a piece of paper or a pencil and a piece of paper and the ideas.

Vision Battlesword [00:33:03]:
And that's what's really important to me about it, is it doesn't rely on any tool. It's a mindset more than anything else.

Michael Hollinger [00:33:11]:
I can see a whole community around this, even.

Vision Battlesword [00:33:14]:
Where do you see, you see a community?

Michael Hollinger [00:33:15]:
Yeah, I've seen apps done well where people create communities around them, like find other people who speak the IAR language, or even if it's not even just online community, but I think it. I know you're saying only takes one to tango, but I think it's a lot more fun when people can have the same understanding and language and can speak that way. And I think this, I can see this being a movement, even. Absolutely. I think this is, this is bringing a whole missing language piece, and it's a very healing. And, you know, you're talking about transformation. There's a transformational element to this, but I think it's a very healing process for people to understand. And again, going, I think going back to the word autonomous is really important because this is about having sovereignty of self, you know, understanding.

Michael Hollinger [00:34:02]:
Like, I have these channels. These, these are open or closed for me, depending on. And then being able to have enough self worth in myself to say, I'm willing to stand for myself and let you know through language or body language or communication, whatever it is, that this is open, this is closed. And I'm willing to on my boundaries. And I think for like, boundaries is a great word. And I've been looking at this for a while, lately too, is like, boundaries can be so permeable, you know? And as people step into self worth and their boundaries, these channels are a great way to help see the permeability in the boundaries. It's like, okay, I can now see where I have permeability in this boundary. I just didn't know what to call it.

Michael Hollinger [00:34:41]:
Now I can see like, I was wide open and I didn't know it, you know, so I can now close that, that channel, but these channels I can choose to have open.

Vision Battlesword [00:34:50]:
Yeah, that's a great point. I'm glad you brought that up because it really highlights another part of the value of iaR, which is what I'm closed to is at least as important, if not more important than what it is that I'm open to and seeking. And a lot of people that have given me feedback about how they've used ir in their own lives have reflected that. The channels that they've closed and the energy that they get back from, the energy that they free up from having these open loops with people where it's like, are we, aren't we? Did we, will we again have energy leak? It's an energy leak and it's a psychological distraction. And it just, it kind of just creates confusion in the relationship where, you know, maybe there are some people that you're not really having a relationship with anymore or it doesn't really make sense anymore and you fully close, you know, you fully close that container and that's one way to do it. But I think there's another piece which can in some cases be even more powerful, which is just, what are the things that are actually really valuable to us? And what if we take the rest of that stuff just off the table and just focus on these pieces and actually to have a relationship re blossom and reflourish in a whole different way, in a way that's actually really where we are really, actually getting our needs met with each other now. Because we're not distracted with whatever this other thing is, was, could have been, could be in the future, but like, no, this is the thing that we're actually, really doing. And this part actually feels really good.

Vision Battlesword [00:36:33]:
And now, now that energy feels more joyful and more exciting and, you know, there's something that we're exchanging there. But the piece about the community, my dream for Ir is I would love for as many people to know about it, to share it with each other, and to practice it in their lives as possible. And I sincerely hope and expect that that would lead to, you know, people would have a lot of benefits and get a lot of value from that. But selfishly speaking, that's just the world I want to live in. Yeah, I actually just want to go through a world where I can have these kind of conversations with everyone and it feels natural. And we're all just kind of relating with and interacting with each other in this way, which is just to say clear and honest, transparent, sincere and intentional.

Michael Hollinger [00:37:28]:
Yeah, he wouldn't want that. I think just understanding the channels and the boundaries and the language. Language is everything, you know? And I think we just, we get lost not understanding how to talk to each other. And I honestly think you got something big here, man.

Vision Battlesword [00:37:45]:
Oh, really?

Michael Hollinger [00:37:46]:
Yeah, I really do. I really think this could be a movement, a culture. It could be something that can really build community. I see you even maybe doing your own, like, podcast or something on this. I see you really like bringing this to the. To the world, just like any kind of other healing medicine that's out there. I think this is a healing medicine. Absolutely.

Michael Hollinger [00:38:05]:
I think vulnerability is where we are, you know, in this, in this age right now, it's about vulnerability and really getting in tune with our heart and who we are and what's going on and sovereignty, which, that's a big part of the autonomous part of it. Like I was saying, with boundaries, like, I think understanding our boundaries and truly coming back to self love, self worth, and opening and closing those channels and finding, I think we said at one point was some channels may be a safe channel to open up for now. Like you just said, you can almost rebuild a relationship by closing out channels that aren't working just to come back to a safe channel for a while, rebuild that, and then open back up channels again. So, yeah, I think this is a very powerful technology you've created. I'd love to see you expand this and really take it to another level.

Vision Battlesword [00:38:52]:
Oh, thanks, man. Yeah, that feedback really means a lot to me. And, yeah, it helps me provides me with a lot of motivation to continue. I agree with you. I think there's something here. It's like had a huge positive impact in my life. It's completely changed my life. It's completely overhauled just how I relate with people altogether.

Vision Battlesword [00:39:15]:
And a lot of other people that I've shared it with have had great success as well. And at the same point, it's kind of like a blessing and a curse at the same time. Because the whole idea of conscious relationships and new paradigm this and evolutionary that and transformational, the other thing is it's just theres a lot of relationship experimentation, exploration, people presenting new systems and different stuff. And so over the past few years, its felt a little discouraging, I just have to say. I just kind of feel like taking IAR out in the world. Its hard for me to figure out how to differentiate it from all of the other things out there. Conscious speed dating and all of the different kind of non traditional relationship ideas. And maybe it's just the community that I happen to be this little micro bubble in Austin that I happen to be a part of where it feels like everybody's talking about how to transform your relationships and everything else.

Vision Battlesword [00:40:26]:
And maybe there's a much, much wider world out there that is open and available to be reached. But it really. It feels good for me to hear you and others give that reflection that you think there's something valuable here. And it gives me the motivation to want to take it to the next level.

Michael Hollinger [00:40:43]:
Yeah, I invite you to look at it as not just relationships. I mean, maybe. Maybe it's not the right term even. Cause I think this is like, again, the whole coming back to sovereignty and like knowing how to speak for yourself. These boundaries, this is something I've been really working on for a long time. Still working on boundaries. Boundaries is not an easy thing to understand. And I know boundaries is absolutely linked to self love, like I was saying before.

Michael Hollinger [00:41:08]:
And that's something that I've really had to work on a lot for myself. And then seeing how these channels relate to boundaries, there's something in here around sovereignty and self love and boundaries that is like way bigger than relationships.

Vision Battlesword [00:41:20]:
Oh, totally. I mean, it's all about sovereignty. I mean it's got the word autonomy.

Michael Hollinger [00:41:23]:
Exactly. Yeah. Your words are very, very intentional. They're like, I. I love the three words you put in there.

Vision Battlesword [00:41:29]:
Yeah, yeah. No, it's totally about sovereignty. It's totally about. If there's one core idea or thesis of IR in general, it's that we have to be starting from a place of sovereignty if we want to have any kind of a healthy, functional relationship. I mean, if there's kind of a tagline I have is that ir is the antidote to codependency. And that's really what it's meant to be. That's why I created it for myself in my own life, is because I was just sick and tired of having codependent, jealous relationships, to be perfectly blunt about it, and getting relationships that kind of suck you into or allow you allow yourself to get sucked into this kind of what I call unintentional entanglement, the so called relationship escalator, where it's just one thing leads to another, leads to another, just like you were saying, the birds and the bees talk that you got as a kid, it's just like, well, this is how it works.

Michael Hollinger [00:42:31]:
Good luck, kid.

Vision Battlesword [00:42:32]:
This leads to that sex leads to marriage, and off you go. Bob's your uncle. And, you know, so what I realized is that the. When relationships are working, the best feeling the best, when there's the least codependency, when there's the most joy and intentionality between two people or any number of people, but let's start with two. It's when everyone involved is comfortable with themself and knows that they're whole and complete and okay. Yeah, it's counterintuitive in a weird sort of way. It sounds like a little bit of a paradox in the culture that we come from, but the reality is that you and me are going to have the best relationship that we possibly can when we both know that we can walk away from it. And it's going to be okay.

Vision Battlesword [00:43:29]:
I'm going to be okay. You're going to be okay. We're both going to be fine. Now, from that place, what would we like to do with each other? What kind of relationship would we like to have with each other? So it's always coming from a place of motivation and choice, from reaching out or from turning toward, which, from our previous conversation, I recognize now, is essentially coming from the heart, you know, coming from that, that place of really true love or universal love. But it has to start from standing in your own power, man, woman, any kind of human, any kind of sentient being. It has to start from standing in a place of your own power, your own sovereignty, your own autonomy, and then making a choice rather than being motivated from a sense of fear, lack, scarcity, deprivation of any sort.

Michael Hollinger [00:44:26]:
Yeah. And again, that word choice is synonymous with sovereignty. Otherwise you're a victim. If not a choice of that. I'm a victim. But if I'm a full, sovereign, autonomous man woman, whatever, I get to make choice. I love that.

Vision Battlesword [00:44:42]:
Would you be open to talking a little bit about boundaries?

Michael Hollinger [00:44:45]:
Sure.

Vision Battlesword [00:44:45]:
Cause you brought that up and you said that's something that, you know, you're continuing to play with and evolve in your own life. And that's certainly. I mean, there's a number of themes that are super common, that come up with, you know, people that I talk to about IAR. Boundaries is a big one.

Michael Hollinger [00:45:03]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:45:04]:
And I have noticed that there's a lot of confusion about just what a boundary even is, let alone, like, how do I. How do I work with them? So I'm just curious, you know, how have boundaries been showing up in your own life and what are you still, like, what, what aspects of that are you still working and playing with?

Michael Hollinger [00:45:27]:
Well, for a while after being divorced, and this is what you and I talked about a year ago, was understanding intimacy versus sex. And that was an important conversation that really helped me see and break those channels apart a bit. And then recently, it's been about really getting clear on redefining that relationship with my ex wife and honoring the fact that we had this relationship at one point where we were married and we lived together, and we've been. We've been divorced for three years. But I. It was kind of left hanging. We didn't really, like, close that off. And so having the conversation with her to say, we now get to choose to be the package called co parents, you know, and I haven't got to go deeper into the different channels with her.

Michael Hollinger [00:46:17]:
And I think that could be a great opportunity to define these different things. Obviously, we're not going to be having sex. You know, intimacy may just look different now. You know, I mean, certainly, you know, picking up the kids, sometimes there's, there's a hug exchange because they just, you know, we see each other, we're like, we've hugged and had sex for years. We can still have a hug. Right? Like, we still have that connection somewhere in there. So, yeah, I think. I think those, those are the boundaries that I've been challenged with for the most part, is what that looks like.

Michael Hollinger [00:46:44]:
And then also, I think, as I get to choose on what it looks like for me to move on from that relationship and into a new relationship, I feel like there's some channels that have been left undefined in the old relationship. So I get to look at those channels and be very clear and stop those energy leaks. And I feel like, those energy leaks and the old relationship are preventing me from feeling confident and moving forward in the new relationship. So that's what I get to do, is really look at those channels and decide what's open, what's closed, and what I'm now seeking into. Like, the seeking part is a really important piece. Like, open, close. And now what I'm seeking.

Vision Battlesword [00:47:26]:
What you're telling me right now sounds a lot like you're talking about getting clear on your intentions.

Michael Hollinger [00:47:31]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:47:31]:
And so I'm still kind of curious about boundaries. Like, what is a boundary to you?

Michael Hollinger [00:47:36]:
That's a really great question, and this is probably one that I been really challenged with lately because I know what it feels like. I know what the experience is like, where, like, a boundary is kind of crossed, but it's like. But it's. But I realized that it's been a choice that I've made. It's always a choice, but because I've been unclear about it. And that's what I like about the channels, because I think some channels are still open. That's why I'm going back to the channels, and triggers are always our own doing. So I know that when I'm looking at the situation now, from this moment, as you're asking me this question, I'm seeing that because I left those channels open, I'm upset with myself.

Michael Hollinger [00:48:13]:
I'm triggered with myself about it. If I'm truly being a sovereign, autonomous person, you know, being. I can look at that and say, I left that channel open.

Vision Battlesword [00:48:22]:
You're a master of your own energy, right?

Michael Hollinger [00:48:23]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:48:25]:
That's interesting.

Michael Hollinger [00:48:26]:
And that's what I love about these channels, because it's. It really is. It's funny, like, being in technology for years, I think of, like, a firewall.

Vision Battlesword [00:48:33]:
Yeah.

Michael Hollinger [00:48:34]:
You know, it's like, you can have certain ports open in a firewall to get technical for a minute.

Vision Battlesword [00:48:39]:
Yeah.

Michael Hollinger [00:48:39]:
But it's like, these boundaries are there, and it's a firewall, and I can have this one open, this one closed, this one seeking. And it's like, what do I choose?

Vision Battlesword [00:48:45]:
Right. I think, you know, that I spent about 20 years in technology, you know, computer consulting and. Yeah, things like that. So, yeah, I never really thought, for some reason, I've never actually truly thought of it in networking terms before, but.

Michael Hollinger [00:49:01]:
It'S totally that and relationship is networking, too, at the same time. We call it networking meet people.

Vision Battlesword [00:49:07]:
Yeah, yeah. No, it's so obviously that. It's like, port, open, port, close, tcp, handshake, making a socket. Same thing. But okay. You still haven't told me what a boundary is, though.

Michael Hollinger [00:49:20]:
Well, I mean, it sounds to me like you get a better idea of how to define a boundary. I mean, I think for me, that's. I mean, I'm. That's what I'm working on right now is getting clear. So maybe you can help me understand how to define boundaries better for myself.

Vision Battlesword [00:49:34]:
A boundary is a decision that you make about where you want to keep yourself and your energy. So a boundary is a sort of a line that you draw around yourself, and you say, I'm comfortable, I'm safe, I'm content. I'm choosing to be here. And if anyone or anything comes into this space with me that I'm not comfortable with, I'm going to withdraw. That's what a boundary is to me.

Michael Hollinger [00:50:15]:
Okay, so what does withdrawal look like? That term, to me, sounds like an avoidance. I was like a retreat. Withdrawal going almost. Like going back into yourself almost. Instead of being, I guess. What do you mean by withdrawal?

Vision Battlesword [00:50:37]:
Well, what I mean is I'm gonna pull back my energy. I'm gonna. I'm not going to remain in this physical space. I'm not going to remain in this specific dynamic, whatever it is. I'm going to take care of myself. That's essentially what with. In this case, what withdraw means is it just means I'm going to choose to take care of myself, and that may include not being in this relating right now.

Michael Hollinger [00:51:08]:
So I think maybe something that comes up for me around this is the right way to handle when the boundary is crossed. So withdrawal, to me, sounds like I'm running away from it, like I don't want. And I'm just. This is what came up for me. It's my own interpretation of that word. And there's got to be a way that I'm looking for is, how do I communicate with the right language to say, you've crossed my boundaries without being a dick? Like, fuck you, you're in my fucking boundaries.

Vision Battlesword [00:51:35]:
You know, that's why I asked the question. That's exactly why I asked the question, why I've been, like, kind of continuing to press or getting a clear definition of it, because that is a way that I have noticed the word boundary being used a lot, and I call it the weaponization of boundaries. And what I think has happened is this whole concept of boundaries as kind of a psychological theory and strategy and behavior and relationships and things kind of came up in the, you know, maybe the sixties, seventies, eighties timeframe and kind of entered the therapeutic space and it entered the like twelve step and recovery space and all of these different, these kind of different realms where it was very useful and very important. And especially like if someone's in an abusive relationship or in a. Having an abusive relationship or in a dangerous situation or all of these different things. This is a concept that has helped a lot of people to get clear with themselves on not giving away their sovereignty, not allowing themselves to continue to be abused, or to stay in a situation where they're actively being harmed. Unfortunately, I think that coming through the kind of nineties, two thousands, politically correct, wokeifying kind of cultural transition or transformation, the word boundary has been picked up and has started to be used as an offensive instead of defensive.

Michael Hollinger [00:53:13]:
Then the cancel culture turns into it and all that.

Vision Battlesword [00:53:15]:
Where a boundary now to some people I've noticed, seems to be like a line that I get to draw not around myself, but a line that I get to draw around you and your behavior. I'm setting a boundary. So the incorrect communication, in my opinion, or the offensive or weaponized communication be something like, I have a boundary. I need you to x, y, z. That's not what a boundary is exactly. A boundary is a statement about yourself. That's the most important clarification.

Michael Hollinger [00:53:50]:
But even then, that's also been weaponized too. I'm feeling offended right now because you aren't calling me a certain thing or like, you're using these words, I'm feeling offended right now. So, you know, it's, it's you put in the I term, but like, people also are becoming triggered so easily by the smallest little things and that becomes weaponized too.

Vision Battlesword [00:54:09]:
Sure. Yeah, that's, that's fair. And that's a. I think a more subtle or more slightly more sophisticated way or more passive aggressive way.

Michael Hollinger [00:54:20]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:54:20]:
Of weaponizing a boundary. But when I say, and I. When I say it's a statement about yourself, I mean, it's a statement of sovereignty. I mean, it's a statement about, this is where I'm gonna stay, this is what I'm gonna do. This is how I'm gonna take care of myself. These are the choices that I would like to make.

Michael Hollinger [00:54:38]:
And I think the distinction is in who is creating the trigger. Right. It's easy for people to be like, you are triggering me versus I'm feeling triggered. There's something coming up for me that is my own shit that I get to look at too. And that's a big part of the work that we get to do to come into sovereignty to create those boundaries. I think it's challenging to create the boundaries until you're clear on where your triggers start and end, too, and knowing what you've created for yourself. Or if I create for myself, I speak for myself and my own triggers.

Vision Battlesword [00:55:15]:
That's fair. Yeah. Well, I think the key point is that, in my opinion, a true boundary represents a person taking ownership of their own experience 100%. That's really. Yeah, that's. That's the key distinction.

Michael Hollinger [00:55:28]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:55:28]:
So it's not to say that there can't be elements in our relationship where I have a trigger in response to some of your behavior. Yeah, but the boundary, or the question is, well, what am I going to do about that? It's not a matter of what are you going to do about that. I can make a request. You know, my boundary can include a request. I can say something along the lines of, you know, Michael, I just want to let you know that I've really come to become aware of how I feel and how triggered I am when you raise your voice, you know, and display a lot of anger when you're talking to me. And I get that, you know, you've got to, you've got your own feelings and you've got your own expressions and everything else that I really need to set a boundary with that, which is to say, like, I can handle that for about five minutes and not, not more. And so, you know, I'm going to make a request, if we get in that situation again, to say, hey, you know, can we take a break? Can you lower your tone? Can we do whatever? And if that's not something that you feel like you can do at that time, then I'm going to have to break off our conversation and go take care of myself.

Michael Hollinger [00:56:37]:
I like that. Yeah. I like the word request. Request is a good word. Not demanding, not commanding. Just letting you know, like, this is important to me, and can you honor that?

Vision Battlesword [00:56:45]:
Right, right. But the, the, I think where we go in the wrong, I think where a boundary becomes ineffective and. And no, no longer a statement of taking ownership of your own experience, but becoming about trying to manipulate or change someone else's behavior is if we were to say to something like, you know, Michael, I really don't like when you talk to me that way. And I have a boundary that I don't ever want to be spoken to that way again. That's not a boundary. That's an ultimatum.

Michael Hollinger [00:57:19]:
Yeah, yeah. That's a really good point. And it's very subtle, but it's also energetically felt way differently.

Vision Battlesword [00:57:29]:
Totally. And notice in the first one, the first example, at no point am I saying to you, like, you can't have that behavior. You can't have that experience. Whatever you're doing is not valid. I'm not invalidating you in any way. I'm just saying, like, look, this is how I know I respond and react to these sort of things, and I can only do it for so long, or I can't do it at all, or I have to change my experience. You're taking ownership of yourself, that point. So I say that's sovereignty.

Michael Hollinger [00:58:01]:
Yeah. And it goes back to relating again, because it's like I get to choose who I want to be relating with in my life and how I want those relationships to be had. You know, even if it's just a friendship. Like, if we're going to be friends, this channel of friendship that's open has a certain way it gets to look, and I get to define that channel.

Vision Battlesword [00:58:21]:
We get to define it.

Michael Hollinger [00:58:22]:
Right? Yeah, that's a. Okay, so we get to fight. You're saying the two of us together, we get to define it.

Vision Battlesword [00:58:27]:
Well, yes. If we're having a relationship, if we're relating with each other, then presumably this is going both ways.

Michael Hollinger [00:58:34]:
It is.

Vision Battlesword [00:58:35]:
So you've got your desires, your intentions, your needs. I've got my desires, intentions, and needs. And then our relationship is where those things match up and feel good and right and comfortable for both of us.

Michael Hollinger [00:58:53]:
Yeah, this is interesting, because then it's like. But then if. If it changes, obviously the boundaries come up. It's like, okay, we agreed, and now you're. Now you've shifted outside of what we agreed to. And so I'm letting you know that this is beyond the original agreement we had.

Vision Battlesword [00:59:13]:
Yeah, like, so you're saying, like, we're.

Michael Hollinger [00:59:15]:
Gonna talk to each other nicely, and now you're yelling at me. And this is what we agreed to doing. Right. So I'm letting you know, like, and this is where we get back. What I like about those for the boundary standpoint, is, like, we had the agreement. It's not about me or you. It's like we agreed to this middle piece. Like, this is what we agreed to.

Michael Hollinger [00:59:31]:
And so anytime you have an agreement, it's easier to blame the agreement. Like, this is the agreement.

Vision Battlesword [00:59:34]:
Right. Well, I think an agreement and a boundary are two different things, but I think oftentimes we can have agreements about boundaries. Yeah, you know, we can. Like, I can state a boundary. A boundary doesn't actually require your agreement. True. That's actually just.

Michael Hollinger [00:59:50]:
Well, that's why I was wondering, because you said. You said, we agree on it. Because I thought. I've always thought a boundary is more like a one way thing, and that's why I was curious, because you brought it back. You brought it back to we. So I was trying to see where that comes back in on we.

Vision Battlesword [01:00:02]:
Maybe I misunderstood what you're saying. I just. What I was hearing you say was something about the type of friendship that we're having.

Michael Hollinger [01:00:09]:
I see.

Vision Battlesword [01:00:10]:
So I was just like, yeah, we. We would like. It would be a conversation between us, what type of friendship we're having. But within that context, you can have a boundary, I can have a boundary. We can also have an agreement, you know? But a boundary, ultimately, is a statement about yourself where you're prepared to go, how far you're prepared to go, and where you're not prepared to go and what you're gonna do about it. That's. That's really what a boundary is. Now, I can state a boundary, and then I can say, are you open to having an agreement to respect my boundary?

Michael Hollinger [01:00:43]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:00:43]:
And then if you say yes, well, now we've got an agreement.

Michael Hollinger [01:00:46]:
Right?

Vision Battlesword [01:00:46]:
So. Yeah. So that is something that, you know, we could be accountable to.

Michael Hollinger [01:00:50]:
Yeah. At that point.

Vision Battlesword [01:00:51]:
But you don't have to agree to my boundary. I can still have it.

Michael Hollinger [01:00:55]:
No, and that's where it gets interesting, though, again, because you don't have to agree to my boundary. But that's also the choice you get to make, because now I get to the choice of, we're not gonna be friends now. That's fine. I'm not going to be relating with you anymore in this way.

Vision Battlesword [01:01:08]:
Yeah, yeah. But how much better to have that conversation, you know, outside of a context where you're having a conflict or a fight or whatever. Yeah, but to, like, really get clear with each other about where your boundaries are, what agreements you'd like to have, what your intentions are. And I, you know, kind of have that container with each other, let's just say in a compassionate. In a rational, maybe, but in an intentional way. Whereas the way I think, the way most people do it is we just kind of bump. Bump up into each other, bump up against each other, and sometimes it feels good, and sometimes it feels bad, and then eventually, sometimes it gets messy.

Michael Hollinger [01:01:58]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:01:59]:
And then that's when we start trying to figure things out.

Michael Hollinger [01:02:01]:
Yeah. Love that. Well, thanks so much, Vision. This is really enlightening. I enjoyed this.