The Dawπ [00:00:01]:
Only the idea that we're powered by stories is of interest, which makes me think of my favorite Jesus Christ story. Ooh. I like the conversation of energy, but, I mean, I just straight to the juicy stuff. Well, I mean, you know, you know how I feel about it.

Vision Battlesword [00:00:21]:
How do you feel about it?

The Dawπ [00:00:24]:
How do I feel about Jesus?

Vision Battlesword [00:00:26]:
Sure.

The Dawπ [00:00:28]:
I believe is one of the greatest pieces of propaganda ever put upon humans. Without question, folks just said yes to that one. So much so that this character actually has legs now, has form and function. And I think it was always an idea.

Vision Battlesword [00:00:53]:
Anyway, let's start with an easy question. Who are you?

The Dawπ [00:00:57]:
Could we just go with Dawπ?

Vision Battlesword [00:01:00]:
Sure.

The Dawπ [00:01:00]:
Yeah. There's a tendency to want to identify with passions or things I've done or roles I've played. I use the tagline earth advocate, changemaker, co creator, and all those things feel really true for me. Like, I literally feel like I crawled up from the earth, dirt and took form in this world. And I'm just an advocate of that space.

Vision Battlesword [00:01:30]:
I'm Vision Battlesword. I'm the founder of Sacred Light, creator of Intentional Autonomous Relating, and host of Sacred Conversations. I was really getting interested with what you were saying a moment ago. You brought up energy. You brought up Jesus, and then you said, you know how I feel about it? And I said, well, no, tell me. Tell me, how do you feel about it? And then you started sharing with me about Jesus, and you mentioned the word propaganda, and you said that it's something that has legs, that has form. Jesus has form. But I'm just curious, do you think that all of this relates somehow to energy? You know, I'm thinking about, when you talk about Jesus, I'm interpreting what you're saying as you don't necessarily think of Jesus Christ as a historical figure, a man who lived.

Vision Battlesword [00:02:30]:
Is that right?

The Dawπ [00:02:31]:
That's what I said. Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:02:33]:
But then it makes me think of this idea of sort of self autonomous aggregations of energy, thought forms, if you will, things that we create through our collective consciousness that then actually can take life.

The Dawπ [00:02:52]:
So reading the book Ishmael, and that there are stories, right, the stories are really powerful pieces that work with humanity. And I believe that the story of Christianity, the story of Jesus Christ, is a great example of how. Of how that becomes a belief system, how that actually, like, there's so many layers of it, I don't even have the language to communicate it. But it does go back to my fundamental, like, in my bones belief that this idea, this story, this creation of the character Jesus is just that. It is just a story. But I don't think that it was like, a fun story that people created for some kind of, like, to convey some kind of moral or. I believe that it was constructed intentionally for the use of control. And what that speaks to for me is the way that human minds work.

The Dawπ [00:04:00]:
And especially when you have, like, an entire, like, you know, like, population, and then this actually goes within our entire planet, that large portions of it all agree on this story, and then that actually, that projection actually gives it form. But I don't think, like, when I said that I crawled out of the earth and, you know, kind of that bones and stone and that, like, that core thing, I do not see that this idea, this character, this creation has that at its core and its substance.

Vision Battlesword [00:04:38]:
I see.

The Dawπ [00:04:38]:
I think it is thought form.

Vision Battlesword [00:04:40]:
Yeah, this is really cool and interesting to me because our conversation right now is coming right off, back to back from my previous conversation that I had with Courtney, which was about stories. That was the topic we could start taking a deep dive into one popular, popular, real powerful story. I think it is powerful.

The Dawπ [00:05:01]:
It's very powerful.

Vision Battlesword [00:05:02]:
But, yeah, this idea of a character as a thought form, is that any less, does that make it any less real than if it's a man of flesh and blood and bone?

The Dawπ [00:05:16]:
I think the story of it is the. Is the power, is the presence of it. What's annoying for me is that part of the story depends on this guy being real and that he came back. Right. Like, you know, the story actually depends on.

Vision Battlesword [00:05:41]:
What is. Sorry.

The Dawπ [00:05:43]:
No, it's okay. Go ahead.

Vision Battlesword [00:05:46]:
What is the story of Jesus as you understand it? Reader's digest version.

The Dawπ [00:05:51]:
Well, I know the story, the brief overview, just a little bit of background on me. I was not raised with Christianity. In fact, I am on the ignorant side of this material. I was intentionally protected from it so that there wouldn't have to be all the undoing of that story to get the other information in. My parents made a choice to prevent that story from being one of the fundamental programs. So I have the basics, right? I've got the basics of, like, that even our date system or our calendar system is BC and this kind of thing. And, like, this guy really, like, helped put a mark on the calendar of how we measure time.

Vision Battlesword [00:06:39]:
I think this is great. And not to interrupt you, I want to get you right back on track, but I just want to interject to say that I think this is great, because this conversation, to me, feels a little bit like it mirrors the conversations in Ishmael, where, in full disclosure, I also wasn't raised in Christianity or in any church in particular and didn't learn Bible stories, the story of Jesus and things like that when I was growing up, except in a very tangential way, just through mother culture. So I feel like this is almost like an exploration again of when Ishmael is asking, Alan, well, what does mother culture say? I think this is super interesting for the two of us to just reflect. What is our mother culture story of Jesus? What is the water that we're swimming in? Of the story of Jesus. You got the basics just from osmosis, from living in the world. What are those basics?

The Dawπ [00:07:37]:
The basics are some immaculate Conception. His backdrop was one of poverty and humility and simplicity and really hitting at the heart of the common people. There's a big old gap right? In his life. He went from this infant, there was some early years, and then he disappears and comes back as some holy man and followers. And then there's the gentle renegade that pissed the church off. And then there's a crucifixion and a resurrection, right? Like, those are the highlights.

Vision Battlesword [00:08:20]:
What happened there? What happened there in that gap? What does mother culture say? So we've got an immaculate conception and a birth story, right? That's all kind of part of our Christmas tradition. That's mostly how I think, how we pick it up, especially if we're nothing raised in Christianity. And then to your point, it's like, dot, dot, dot, 33 years later. 33. Interesting number. Anyway, 33 years later, boom. Now we've got essentially a preacher preaching a gospel of salvation, a spiritual message, which is also a philosophy of life, attracting disciples, working miracles.

The Dawπ [00:09:01]:
Quite honestly, my opinion of the missing years is filled in with Christopher Moore's book Lambda. That is actually the most satisfactory that I can give you.

Vision Battlesword [00:09:16]:
I hear that, and I'm interested in that. But what does mother culture say? Is that ever even addressed?

The Dawπ [00:09:22]:
No, that's why. I mean, there's a lot of opinions about it. People like to have conversations which I find wildly unstimulating and uninteresting. So I have. That's why when I, this author, fiction author, produced this gospel according to Biff, which is Christ's childhood friend, who told of what, you know, his trips to the east and working with Hinduism and all the different things, I was like, yeah, that sounds about right. But again, I don't believe that this guy is real, but.

Vision Battlesword [00:10:00]:
Right. Yeah.

The Dawπ [00:10:01]:
So it doesn't matter.

Vision Battlesword [00:10:03]:
So even that is just an extended mythology. We're just kind of making up stories, like, and a lot of that as I understand it, at least, the theory of the eastern influence in the so called teachings of Jesus is all conjecture based on analyzing the gospels and the material that we have available, which was written, to the best of my understanding, the material that was actually written at least decades, if not centuries after this man allegedly lived. So it's written by other people based on some sort of oral tradition or some sort of historical recounting that was passed down through generations before it was actually recorded. Then we take that material and we look at it, and then we speculate on, well, this looks like eastern influence. This looks a lot like Hinduism. This looks even a little bit like Buddhism. These different things of how we try to put these pieces together. But that also is storytelling.

Vision Battlesword [00:11:06]:
That also is mythology. There's no actual historical record of that as far as I'm aware.

The Dawπ [00:11:12]:
Well, there's a layer of this that fits neatly into the dogmatic scene, which is you don't ask too many questions. And the idea that it's not relevant, right? Like there is the. They pick the highlights of and some nuggets, right, and drop them in there. But there's. What it speaks to is that problem with how humans adopt stories that have like, gaps or they don't make sense, but it's okay because somehow this story has bypassed any form of logic or reason and has imprinted on some level of it hit some of the big ones, fear and hope and the unknown. And I mean, it imprinted on all of those. It was one of the most fucking brilliant exercises upon humans that I've ever witnessed and get to witness all the time. I mean, that shit's still going on, right? I know I'm not fully following your train of thought there and that, but there was a thing that was happening in there for me, which is of interest, which is the fact that humans, and it's kind of like in the COVID time period when people will just take a story and then they lose.

The Dawπ [00:12:36]:
It doesn't matter, right? They'll take the program. But what I think this, for me is how impressionable we are and how these stories can be. So, I mean, they just are so powerful, and we could and should be selective and how we receive, share, and expand on those. You know, I've said it before that I, you know, I have a pretty robust team of spirit guides, and I've actually seen them. I know them. They show up in the material plane. Like, there's no mistake for me, the ones that I'm. That I've got a relationship with, and I repeatedly.

The Dawπ [00:13:20]:
Repeatedly for my whole life. I'm like, all right, dude, there's books, there's stories, there's all this stuff. But, like, if you would like to have a relationship with me, if you'd like to present yourself, if you'd like to share your wisdom, you're welcome to sit down and have a conversation with me. And there's no. It's not real. It's like, there's nothing. There's nothing that ever fills that spot. And so, for me, I'm.

Vision Battlesword [00:13:47]:
You mean with regard to Jesus Christ specifically?

The Dawπ [00:13:51]:
Correct. Yeah. So now, I'm not using that as some kind of scientific data to say, see, it's not real. I just. I don't have any personal experience to validate this story. But what I do see and witness with my own eyes is how the story influences mass numbers of people to say and do and be all sorts of ways that. But I think that's actually part of the master design of the story.

Vision Battlesword [00:14:19]:
There's something particularly interesting to me about this mythology because it occurs in a very specific historical context. So that, to me, makes it more interesting because there's a lot of mythology, there's a lot of spiritual tradition that may happen. And this reflects back on what we're reading in Ishmael that may happen in this sort of idea of a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. Like Star wars, the opening of Star wars. Right. Where exactly does do the events of Genesis take place? And when. And when exactly do the events of the story of Adam and Eve in the garden and the fall take place? And in Ishmael, he points out that we're sort of expected to receive this in the context of some sort of never never land. Like, it's not a specific time or a specific place or somewhere on the planet Earth.

Vision Battlesword [00:15:14]:
And, of course, in Ishmael, he suggests that's. That actually is a specific time and place on planet Earth where these events happened, and that our mythology reflects something real, a historical event. But in the context of the story of Jesus, this happened in what, Palestine, more or less. Right. This happened in the. What is like kind of the modern day Middle east, let's just say. But I think very specifically, Judea. I think, actually, I'm not real sure about that, but I think so.

Vision Battlesword [00:15:44]:
And in a political climate, you know, with a people who were a province of an empire, a roman empire, they were a people who were indeed ruled and subjugated by a more powerful political and military entity. And there's just all of. There's all of these historical facts that actually are known and can be known about the supposed place and time where these events take place. And it just seems to me very interesting to look at the story also through that lens, as well as through a spiritual lens, and as well as through a lens of deconstructing the philosophy that is contained within the story itself and then tracing its origins to wherever different parts of that may have come from, whether that is the spirituality of the east or paganism, Judaism, all different sort of things.

The Dawπ [00:16:42]:
So before you go down the timeline too far, I want to jump in on that. So I do think that place and time is actually relevant, and that it actually is. That it actually has probably real historical facts to it. And it is also during a time period where they're forming control with church and state and how to influence and control the humans. And that piece of it that you just said is actually, for me, really, really critically important. Because the insertion of this story at a level of. At a level of. We're talking about your eternal soul, right? That that is the way to influence.

The Dawπ [00:17:36]:
And then you give the power and control to a figurehead called, I don't know, king or whatever their. Their titles are. This story is essential to the success of what was going on on. On those levels. So, yes, I do think there is. I do believe there are dates and times and places where this actually. Where the. Where it gave birth.

Vision Battlesword [00:18:03]:
Yeah, yeah. I agree with you about just that piece of. It is so interesting, and also, I feel it's so important. But what's particularly interesting about this to me is that this is a story that is purportedly true. The authors of the story present this not as a work of fiction about a character. It's not a fanciful fantasy story, although it certainly has fantastical elements to it. It's purportedly true story. This guy actually lived.

Vision Battlesword [00:18:34]:
He actually did these things. These events happened. It may or may not actually be a work of fiction, or it may or may not actually be a construction of different people and things that happened over periods of time that are kind of assembled up into this entity, as you describe it. But the fact that. But rather the story is set in a specific historical context. And that's just really curious to me and really interesting to me. It'd be like, you know, it'd be like if we had a story, and we do actually have many, many stories like this, but it would be like if we had a story that is set in the early 18 hundreds in America, in Boston, in a specific place and time. And, like, here's the name of the governor.

Vision Battlesword [00:19:23]:
Here's the name of the mayor of Boston. Here's the name of the governor of Massachusetts. These things, like, this is verifiable. There's facts and data and a historical record at play here. But then there's this character that's said to have existed and said to have done all these things. And, yeah, granted, our records are a lot more sketchy from 2000 years ago in Palestine than they are from 150 years ago New England. But yet that's just really, really interesting to me that if it is true that this character is a construct, that it is so believable. It's so believable that I think billions of people on this planet take it as literally true, take it as literal fact.

Vision Battlesword [00:20:14]:
So it sounds like there's something you want to talk about that's a little different than the track that we were going down here with just Jesus as the concept or the topic. You want to talk about something, and Jesus is just sort of like an example or a manifestation of that.

The Dawπ [00:20:29]:
He's a great example of that.

Vision Battlesword [00:20:31]:
Yeah, but that is not that. It's also represented by Taylor Swift. It's also represented by any number of characters or phenomena. That represent what?

The Dawπ [00:20:42]:
Well, this thing that I can't. That I'm trying, which you'll probably be helpful in helping me articulate, is there are characters, there is the backdrop, the props, the stories around them that create enormous influence in massive numbers of people. And I could. We could say something about who is directing that influence and for what ends, for what is the goal. Right. And I have a moment ago curiosity and concern around that. A moment ago, what?

Vision Battlesword [00:21:24]:
We share that. Yeah. A moment ago, you brought up Covid as another example. You could even look at that whole thing as, like, a character construct, that same type of story I showed you a couple of nights ago. I showed you the game that I'm developing, which is kind of all about this.

The Dawπ [00:21:44]:
Yeah, it's brilliant. And that's actually very interesting to me. Yeah. Because I just don't know enough about how the human mind works in that way. For what frequencies, what sounds, what emotions, what imagery is become so powerful that it, like, it hits one hemisphere of the brain, bypasses, and the other one just says yes. Right. Without question. And that's what I think these characters represent.

The Dawπ [00:22:13]:
But for me, I'm actually very curious and concerned about where it's coming from and what it's being used for.

Vision Battlesword [00:22:22]:
And what is it. Are we talking about? Are we talking about propaganda?

The Dawπ [00:22:28]:
Yeah. It would be. It would be propaganda. It would be the story. It would be the direction, right? There's a direction going back to the conversation of Jesus. There's one of their pretty powerful selling tools or techniques. Taglines is like, do you accept him as your savior? Because if it's a yes, then we have something for you. We have a package deal for you here, but you have to buy the thing to get the thing.

The Dawπ [00:23:05]:
That's the piece that I have curiosity about, which is to accept to the program, because the story is a program, right? So much so that it becomes the place where they can just behave however they want to.

Vision Battlesword [00:23:21]:
That's really interesting to me. That seems to me that's like an expansion on the conversation I had with Courtney about stories. And I know you haven't heard it yet, but we dipped our toe a little bit in the idea of propaganda, but that wasn't really what we were talking about. We were really talking about stories in a broader sense, but certainly in the work and play that we do in sacred light and in other contexts has a lot to do with analyzing our own programming, figuring out how it works, figuring out how to change or update those programs. And we very, very often do that through stories. And what I mean when I say we, I'm shifting context to saying we people, humans generally create and modify our programs very often through stories. And there's a sense in which you could look at the story of Christianity or Jesus, whichever way you want to look at it. I'm not sure if, are those two different stories or are they the same story? I'm not sure.

Vision Battlesword [00:24:28]:
But you can look at any particular story that gets legs, as you said it earlier in the conversation, that has legs, that becomes really popular, that becomes really sticky, that becomes really powerful in terms of people aligning to a new belief system and even a new set of behaviors. And look at it as a package for a program in all of the different versions of that word, program, how we might use that word. It's a program for how to live your life. It's a program for how to be a good person. It's a program for how to treat each other. It's a program for how to achieve eternal salvation. That's interesting, huh?

The Dawπ [00:25:13]:
I'm not trying to go into conspiracy theory type conversation.

Vision Battlesword [00:25:20]:
Why not? Okay.

The Dawπ [00:25:24]:
It's the piece of this. It is the most, like, obvious to me that that program serves the purpose of control. And I don't know if I hope I'm not, like, I don't know. Was there a question, or would we just. Where'd the line of thinking it was? The story is a program, right?

Vision Battlesword [00:25:47]:
Yeah. Well, it's like you. I think you brought it up that what we're talking about here. We started off talking about a story, but then I think what we're both realizing is that that story is actually like the candy coating on the outside of some medicine, and the medicine on the inside is a program. And that's what I'm super interested in right now.

The Dawπ [00:26:12]:
The piece where. Right, like, the surface level stuff is usually the thing I want to move out of the way to see what's behind it and what behind it is. Somebody slid across the table for me one day, here, listen to this. And it was Caesar's Messiah. It was the story of the Flavians and the construction, actually the construction of the Jesus Christ story and how it influenced and benefited the ruling structure of that time. And everything in my brain made sense, right? Because I never accepted the heartstrings version of it, or it never. It was never. It was never soul food for me.

The Dawπ [00:26:59]:
Let me just say that it never touched my heart, fed my soul the way many of the other studies that I was introduced to were like, I was consuming it at such a rapid pace. I would always try. I gave it my best shot. I'd pick up the book. Cause I love fucking reading, right? I'd pick up the book, and I'm like, this is just not good, right? This is an interesting piece, too. There's always been those that just cram it in their mouths and their minds and digest it without question. And then there's the ones that are like, yeah, that does not taste good. And wonder what the difference is there.

Vision Battlesword [00:27:39]:
I've been trying to figure that one out since my early twenties of like, what makes me different than most people? It seems to me that there's a majority and a minority, and the majority react one way to stories and programs, especially when they come from authority. And there's a minority that react in a completely different way. And I've been trying to figure that one out for, you know, 25 years. And I think a lot of people have come a long way in starting to pull back the curtain and on themselves, starting with themselves. I think that's where it has to start. That, you know, that reflects for me on my conversation with Vic about open mindedness and just how that initial self reflection, the phrase, ever since I talked with Vic, this phrase, intellectual honesty, has been resonating more and more for me. There was a point in our conversation where I had some resistance to it for some reason because of my relationship with the word honesty. But more and, yeah, but more and more, you know, I'm really resonating with it and seeing how even in the conversation, I'm not going to repeat any part of it, but even in the conversation that we were having before we started that there's an aspect of intellectual honesty that really, it seems to me, has to be a starting point for getting real and getting clear about, well, what's true.

Vision Battlesword [00:29:16]:
You know, what's really true. It's a starting point for agency, I think, in terms of what do I actually believe and what would I like to believe or what actually makes sense to me, not just the story that I've heard, accepting it on face value or because it came from an authority figure or because it makes me feel good, but, like, going a couple of layers deeper than that in terms of what do I actually think about this? Is this logical? What does my intuition tell me? Kind of now I'm sort of reflecting on the brain map that I showed you from the board game that I'm making the other day. Like all the different parts, you know? Yes. This is what my. This is what the part of me that wants to respond to authority, that wants that for this, for lack of a better way of calling it, feels comfortable giving up control, giving up responsibility, just like enjoying that comfort of. I don't really have to think about this too much. I'm being told what to do, and that feels good to me because I trust whatever this source is versus my source of intuition or insight or my physical sense perceptions, the logical or creative part of my brain that actually can manifest new information out of wherever it is that that comes from. I'm just so interested and I'm so curious, and this is why I started developing that game.

Vision Battlesword [00:30:39]:
The whole idea is to deconstruct the stories into their programs and figure out how they work. Figure out how those programs work, how they get their hooks into our brains, into our minds, and into, ultimately, our souls and our bodies as we've just seen. Holy cow. And, like, pull back the curtain on the wizard of Oz altogether and just say, like, look, here it is. Here's the machine, here's the buttons. Here's the levers. Maybe even here's who's pulling them. But I'm not going that far down this conspiracy hole right now.

Vision Battlesword [00:31:13]:
But here's the machine, here's the levers, here's the buttons. This is how these things have been pushed and pulled on us. This is how we push and pull these things on ourself all the time and, like, create a new kind of liberation or freedom for myself and for everyone else to be like, how do you want to program your machine?

The Dawπ [00:31:34]:
Well, yeah, that's fundamental core layer of all this. Something that's coming to mind right now as you're talking about this. When there's a story, you know, is it true? And that there's a tendency, and this is, I think, part of its design, to, like, look at this or that, this or that, blue or red, this or that. And that, for me, is actually another fallacy in that process program that design that actually further diverts attention away from a much more important, interesting and influential piece of it. So I'm going to bring up abortion, right? So there's the idea where it's like you're either for or against it, right? There's this whole list of why we would be for women's rights and my body, my. That whole thing. And then there's the religious and all the moralistic things on the other side. And I'm like, I have appreciation for both sides.

The Dawπ [00:32:48]:
But what I'm actually irritated by is why we're not having the conversation about the fact that we as a female species and those of you that have, I don't care what you identify as, but if you have. If you have a vagina, okay, and you are the able to, you know, reproduce, why is it that we as intelligent beings don't have the capability within our mind structure? I'm not talking about with pills or outside influence, but through our internal functioning to turn that shit on and off. I'm not a fucking animal. I'm not a rabbit. And I actually believe and know in my bones that I have the capability to operate that mechanism, like open and close that portal. Yes, I'm going to let this in. No, I'm not. Without just being like that.

The Dawπ [00:33:39]:
It's some kind of accidental or, like cosmic or situation. And I think that there is a piece that has happened, rather it happened by our own forgetfulness or negligence of it, or if there was actually DNA manipulation that kept us from having direct control over that. That's an more interesting conversation to me. And that's when, like, I don't love this and that. I feel like that those are distractions from bigger conversations. Like when we talk about political things. I think that's a distraction from a larger conversation which is about galactic federation influence. Right? Like, you know, I'm like, I go all the way with the other possibilities of things that those programs that we're talking about are actually super simplistic.

The Dawπ [00:34:31]:
They really are a this or that, and they get us caught up in a dualistic conversation.

Vision Battlesword [00:34:36]:
Right? I think so. In fact, I love what you're honing in on here, because I think that in and of itself is one of the most simple and powerful and invisible programs. The binary program, the false choice program is one of the simple programs that are, is one of the most powerful for somehow tricking our brains into turning off. And this also reflects on the conversation I had with Vic, because this particular piece of it came up in relation to open mindedness. And I think we're now honing in on like a different piece of it. But I've noticed that and have, have been trying to call attention to it, that when for whatever reason or for whoever's doing it, when we get set up into a binary, it tricks our brain into, just like you said, giving up on having a conversation that may include any other possibilities, that may include a more comprehensive or a more integrated perspective of what's possible here, what is really going on here. And we're set up into this adversarial posture. It's me versus you, it's us versus them.

Vision Battlesword [00:35:52]:
It's this versus that. That in and of itself is a program, the binary program.

The Dawπ [00:35:58]:
And you can use the word they in that conversation, because on big screens and on radios and things like that, there is a they who actually puts this performance on and actually distracts and people actually engage in it. They take the remotes, they do the things, and they watch, and they have conversations and debates about it. And that is by design. So there is a they.

Vision Battlesword [00:36:22]:
I think you're right. I think there is. But also, if we can maybe pull back from that piece of the conversation and just look at this whole thing a little bit more philosophically. So, just looking at this binary program as a technology, let's say a tool in a toolbox, I think it's very useful. I think that it is. For example, it's a language based program that offers an alternative to violence. This is how I've looked at it. And this comes from my hobby as a debater.

Vision Battlesword [00:36:56]:
I got really into debate for a few years. I got really good at it also. And I studied rhetoric and oratory and argumentation and logic in order to become better at debate. And in doing so, I realized the thing that you're talking about right now, which is that, oh my gosh, this whole structure, the structure of this whole thing is based on a fallacy that there are only two positions that are acceptable, and one or the other of them must be right. And I got really curious, because that's what I do. I got really curious about that, and I started thinking, like, why do we do it this way? Where does this come from? And in my thought process, I started playing backwards in time, playing backwards through history, trying to imagine. And this, by the way, all comes from reading Ishmael at a young age. Like, why does my brain work this way? That's a program that I picked up, the program of, let's go back in time, let's go back through history, try and trace this back to its roots, to its origins.

Vision Battlesword [00:37:58]:
Why does this make sense? What is this for? What good is this for us? And the conclusion that I came to is that it's an alternative to violence. If we're at an impasse, maybe there's a tension over resources. Maybe there's a tension over a decision hierarchy in a tribe. Who knows? There's some sort of tension, there's some sort of conflict. We can simply go do battle, and one of us has a bigger club or bigger muscles or a bigger brain and more cunning, or whatever that may be, and can literally out force the other. I win, you lose. We do my thing. I take your resources.

The Dawπ [00:38:40]:
That's not violent.

Vision Battlesword [00:38:42]:
That's what I'm saying. That's violence.

The Dawπ [00:38:44]:
Okay.

Vision Battlesword [00:38:44]:
Or a new idea, a new alternative technology to that could be we're going to argue, we're going to set up a binary posture in language space instead of in physical space. We're going to set that up as. What's your position? What's my position? One of us will be right, and one of us will be wrong by the time we finish this process. Or one of us will be judged the winner and judge the loser, if you want to think of it a different way. And then we will agree to abide by that outcome. Instead of me hitting you over the head with a club or you running me through with your sword, instead we're going to do this through words. We're going to do this through language.

The Dawπ [00:39:26]:
Are you sure it's not just a new form of violence?

Vision Battlesword [00:39:28]:
I think it is a new form of violence. Yeah. Yeah. And that's actually why Marshall Rosenberg calls his system nonviolent communication, because I think we can have a new form of violence in communication.

The Dawπ [00:39:42]:
It is. It actually is. Because I was thinking of that, I was like, you know, there's a. There's a program that's put in place. It's not actually a program. It's a little, you know, sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me. Which we know is absolute bullshit. What is that? Well, that's a little.

Vision Battlesword [00:39:58]:
Nursery rhyme.

The Dawπ [00:40:00]:
Yeah, but I guess it is a program. I'm just trying to find a different kind of word for it. But. Okay, so if that's a layer that's put in there and then it's a mnemonic that maybe. Okay, and then we, and then we have a, we have a nonviolent communication. But now along the, along those definitions, it really actually would be healthy. But in a more of a debate situation where there is a two sided situation and there's going to come out of it a winner, it's like energetic violence.

Vision Battlesword [00:40:27]:
There can certainly still be energetic violence without a doubt. And I think that there can also be violence, physical violence that's attached to this binary, I call it binary adversarial argumentation. That's the name that I gave for this tech, which is not an accident per se, that it creates an acronym of baa or ba. But in reality, the way I look at it is it's a super improvement over the prior, sure, prior approach and it's brought us a long way. You know, we got a good 3000 years, three and a half thousand years out of this tech. That's brought us a legal system, political systems, democratic processes, a rational modern approach. You know, this is really almost the birth of rationalism when you think about it. That's taken us all the way, you know, through this period of our species to a point where our population has exploded and our technology is going exponential and global civilization and societies that we've created based on this fundamental concept of we're going to talk things out, but we're going to set things up in an A B model.

Vision Battlesword [00:41:49]:
One of them is going to be right and then we're going to move forward with that and we're all going to make an agreement to not do violence on each other. Instead, we're going to talk things out whether it's in front of a judge in a court, whether it's in front of elected representatives in a congress, whether it's within a family structure or in a mediation as friends. That's our approach. And my point is, just like what you're saying about the abortion debate or pretty much any other debate of significance in my opinion, in society. The reality has always been, but is especially in the modern world, vastly more complex than could ever be simplified to an AB choice. And that simple program in and of itself has actually become. It's come full circle from being something that's a benefit to the species of allowing us to pushing us forward to flourish. And it's actually coming back around again to becoming a self limiting belief system that causes us to turn our brains off and to fall into a this or that trap where both this and that are actually wrong.

Vision Battlesword [00:42:54]:
And what I want us to be able to do is to have more of an open ended conversation about things where we entertain a number of different perspectives, where we bring all of our best information to the table and then we engage in an earnest process of truth seeking to come to a consensus, or at least to come to a nuanced approach of how to handle some of these issues. That's based more on.

The Dawπ [00:43:26]:
Yeah, and I also want to, I also want to add back in a little bit of. And this is. I'm just, I'm having little flashes in my mind of the dog park and like a cat fight and there is a little part of nature that just wants to throw down and, and move shit around and, and I'm here for that. There is, there's times when I find that's going to be wildly more effective than words. And I, and I do this thing where like when I think about how humans do it and you know, and then I, like I immediately go into nature and it's brutal sometimes and then it's very cooperative. I'm having some funny thoughts of animal behavior and respecting it as valid and useful. The evolution of the physical violence to words, which is it's evolved, but there's also a part where it has devolved into very manipulative and sneaky ways of harming somebody. Deeply, deeply harming people.

Vision Battlesword [00:44:38]:
Yeah, I think so. I think that's where, that's where I think our suspicion that there's some folks who are highly aware of these programs, how they work and what their impact is. I think it's not irrational at all to suspect and even have good evidence to believe that these programs are actually being used intentionally to get people to turn their brains off, to get people to accept a false choice, a false binary. Well if it's either gotta be a or b, then I guess, I guess it's gotta be a. It's like, oh, how convenient that a is what they wanted you to accept all along. How convenient. Oh, interesting. They again, who is theydeze? But you know, how does it help us? I think it helps us.

Vision Battlesword [00:45:29]:
But in your opinion, does it help us? And how does it help us to be able to identify. Okay, boom, right here, we got one. We've got a simple program, the ab program, the false choice program, whatever that may be, to be able to identify that when it's happening. And then what is the alternative? You said, it sounds like you're almost proposing an alternative here. It's like, okay, yeah, maybe I am. What is the alternative? What's a new program? What's a different program? Because that is my proposition. My proposition is that we have this particular tech, and it's not the only piece of it. Certainly there's many, many different language structures.

Vision Battlesword [00:46:05]:
These simple programs, maybe you call them memes, that sometimes, I think, developed in our favor and for our good. Maybe sometimes they're just parasites or things that have been riding along, coming along for the ride. They don't actually have our. They're not actually in our favor for our good, but they're just like part of our ecosystem as a species. But I am proposing that this tech has played itself out, that we're in a point where this is no longer serving us, this is no longer useful for us. We aren't going to be able to solve the big problems of the day, like abortion, like medical rights, like even how ought we govern ourselves? Or how ought we to be governed, or how ought we treat each other? What kind of society would we like to have? All of these big, important, complex, challenging, nuanced issues? We're not going to be able to solve that with a rhetorical debate of pro con, red, blue, black, white. This, that, doesn't it have to be a different kind of conversation?

The Dawπ [00:47:10]:
So. Yeah, it does. I want to go back to something you said because we were agreeing on. There's this other version. I wasn't aware that you were trying to create some kind of new technology or new kind of program to bring our attention over to that. So I just wanted to clarify that I am.

Vision Battlesword [00:47:28]:
I am actually proposing that.

The Dawπ [00:47:29]:
Okay, great. I already automatically have attention and interest in the other thing. So let's go into the idea that one of the things that I've spent 20 years of my life doing is trying to shift the way humans consume food, and not from a save the earth perspective, not from any kind of. But because it is the beauty way. It is right action. It is too, like we only need one. I find consumerism to be, quite honestly, repulsive to me. I think it is wasteful.

The Dawπ [00:48:03]:
But again, I'm not trying to save anything. And the question that I had in my mind back then was, as I was doing a recycling gig, I'd started a recycling company in Dallas, and I was doing taste of Dallas, and I was trying to get in front of the people and move, create a system and create a flow. And I was, like, so hot, sweaty, tired, and I was like, oh, my God. What would it take to shift the way these people consume? And right then, this music started, and it was so good. And it, like, caught my attention, and I was like, but it has to be beautiful. It has to invoke. It has to invoke desire, you know, your attention. Like, they have to want to do it.

The Dawπ [00:48:48]:
It has to be attractive. And that, for me, is, what about anything else would need to feel good. It would need to be attractive. It would need to have a resonance to it that is actually. That people would just stop. They would just put this down because this other thing actually feels good. That is actually how I think the attention gets diverted. I think these other conversations of themselves are actually attractive.

The Dawπ [00:49:23]:
I think there is wisdom and truth in them which actually speaks to a part of the mind and the soul that is actually attractive. And that that in and of itself kind of takes care of itself. What I think we're called to do is to have those conversations and to vocalize them. And then it actually. It actually, of its own nature, invites it in. But that was just a little point I wanted to clarify.

Vision Battlesword [00:49:55]:
Okay, well, I agree with what you said a few moments ago, which is that we are actually in a process of de evolution in terms of our. At a grand scale. You know, the scale of society, the scale of community, what I'm witnessing even in just my own life. And I'm only, you know, almost 45 years old, but I certainly have seen a dramatic change and de evolution. I'm sure I'm not the only one I know I'm not the only one that's noticed it. In terms of our ability to have rational, intellectually honest, intellectually rigorous, fair, balanced conversations, at least in terms of what I see represented in media and to a certain degree, what I've experienced in my own life. But what I see represented in media is reflective of a regression or maybe a progression into more and more highly rigid belief structures. Less and less openness to entertain other ideas, more and more acceptance of certain statements, facts, information on faith, or because they come from a particular source or authority, even while at the same time, again, this comes back to the Jesus phenomenon.

Vision Battlesword [00:51:26]:
The hologram of the projection. Who's actually running the controls behind that, who's actually creating that projection of. Yes, maybe it's actually a really beautiful, maybe inspiring, maybe helpful story for a lot of people. With the certain aspects of the meaning and the philosophy contained in that. But now, flipping that around to this idea of a functional government or a functional scientific institutions or functional academic institutions, or these different things as projections which are not actually true anymore, which we're supposed. We're asked to accept this on faith. We're asked to accept this on face value, with all of these fancy mouth words, as you like to say. These colorful projections, these colorful images of what a healthy, functional, flourishing society is supposed to look like, even while at the same time, what's happening as I see it, at least in terms of the outward appearances that comes through in our media, is of people falling more and more and more and more into increasingly rigidity, a b argumentation and conversations about things that are increasingly weird, absurd, unrealistic, completely irrelevant to the things that are happening.

Vision Battlesword [00:52:43]:
Things are actually happening in our world around us and how we treat each other. And what I'm proposing as an alternative to that is something that I call non binary collaborative dialectic, or NCD, as an alternative to BAA, as a new program. A non binary collaborative dialectic would start from a question as compared to a proposition. And then it would invite a number of perspectives to reflect on that question within a group or within a container that have an agreement that the goal of this exercise is for us to all work together to create the best answer to that question that satisfies us all as best as possible. What do you think about that? As a program.

The Dawπ [00:53:44]:
I'm all for a different conversation as an alternative, but not as a landing place. Right. As you were saying, all that my brain was going into ways to make that inviting. Right?

Vision Battlesword [00:54:02]:
Does it not seem inviting?

The Dawπ [00:54:03]:
It's. No, the context of it is very inviting. And it is. There's that part of me that goes into the. My years of trying to shift the way humans, right? And I can give you the why and that they, like, deconstruct it. But somehow I've got to. I've got to make it really beautiful and attractive for you on the outside to make you, like, want to do this thing. And meanwhile, this other thing is being accomplished.

The Dawπ [00:54:34]:
Like your program. You're like. And not. Not from a manipulative way, but, yeah, it sort of is, right? Because we're trying to shift. We're trying to shift human behavior into something, which I think I agree, we agree, others will agree, is actually in our favor and far good.

Vision Battlesword [00:54:56]:
Well, that brings us full circle back around to the story as the candy coating for the program. The medicine. That's what you're describing right now. You're saying, okay, it looks like. Looks like some interesting medicine. I'm not sure how it necessarily is going to taste going down, but I do know that you're going to have to make it delicious. That's kind of what you're saying, right?

The Dawπ [00:55:16]:
Well, you have to make both. There's going to be those that are just want to, like, want the, want the ingredients broken down very specifically. Okay. This vitamin goes here. This is here, and then there's. There's actually four of the greatest. And this is actually really interesting. Coming back full circle, the greatest amount of influence would be to.

The Dawπ [00:55:34]:
For it to actually feel good and to be inviting. And that is actually our agenda. Right. Like there's an agenda to shift into a different way of doing things. And how can we market this in such a way that people will find it enticing? And so how are we different? How is this conversation, how is this version different than, you know, throwing up a figurehead called Jesus, you know, and in a little candy wrapper?

Vision Battlesword [00:56:06]:
How is it different?

The Dawπ [00:56:07]:
I don't know. It will. How it is actually different. And then this will open up a whole different layer. Is that our intentions and desires for a shift, for the evolution of human humanity, the planet, right, would benefit from this? I think there is. So there is a litmus test. There is a process of looking through that, of actually who benefits. Are the intentions pure? Is there that kind of thing? And some of those things are highly subjective.

The Dawπ [00:56:49]:
I agree with it. I'm all for it. I'm just. I'm just kind of laughing inside right now at the. At the ironic parallel it runs to the start of the conversation, which has to do with being subject. Subjected to the influence of some other person's intention story. Like, coming at me like, here, here's this, here's this, here's this. Would you like to.

The Dawπ [00:57:19]:
Would you like this little Jesus Christ sandwich for lunch? Right. And from that, it serves some other greater purpose. There's a little bit of a trap in it, but there's also a. What are the intentions? Right?

Vision Battlesword [00:57:36]:
What do you mean there's a trap in it? And what is it?

The Dawπ [00:57:39]:
It is a design, a style. Like, you know what I mean? Like there's a. It.

Vision Battlesword [00:57:45]:
It is the new program that I described.

The Dawπ [00:57:48]:
Yeah, it is. To. So, okay. Okay. Let me ask you this question. Why would you want to create a new design? What's your purpose?

Vision Battlesword [00:57:58]:
Because I witness the existing design creating structures that are increasingly fragile, inflexible, prone to failure and unscalable. And I noticed that the questions that we have today are more complex than can be packaged into a yes no question or an A B choice. And I believe that there's a new, like, if we put it in computing terminology, it's like, okay, we've been running on a binary system, quite literally. Like, that's how computers run today. They run on a binary system. A switch can either be on or off. That's how all computers work. And I'm suggesting we've actually played that system out.

Vision Battlesword [00:58:45]:
We can't scale that anymore. Our computers are actually even breaking down because the programs we're trying to run on them can't run on a binary system. And I'm proposing, like, okay, we need to invent quantum computing for rhetoric, for language, for choice making, for social organization. We need a system that can have a multitude of states and be suspended in a state of uncertainty while it's processing information that doesn't fall neatly into an on or an off or a zero or a one or an a or a b. That's why.

The Dawπ [00:59:21]:
Okay, well, I agree with all that, and I think it's definitely a step in the right direction.

Vision Battlesword [00:59:31]:
What do you think the trap is though? You said there's a trap in it.

The Dawπ [00:59:36]:
Maybe traps isn't the right word. It is actually utilizing almost the same method, but doing it in a different way.

Vision Battlesword [00:59:45]:
What's the method that you see?

The Dawπ [00:59:47]:
Just the idea of, you said something, and this is in this, I'm trying to recall it in my brain. So now I'm getting it. I feel like I'm getting in a little word, trap here had to do with. You said something about how to get the attention. If this is going on, how do you get the attention over here? And I said, there is something about it.

Vision Battlesword [01:00:10]:
Oh, that piece. The trap.

The Dawπ [01:00:11]:
Attractive.

Vision Battlesword [01:00:12]:
The trap is, okay, I see what.

The Dawπ [01:00:14]:
You'Re saying, right, is how to insert your program.

Vision Battlesword [01:00:16]:
When you get to the point where you wrap the thing in the candy coating, then that looks the same as like, well, that's the piece. Isn't that just propaganda all over again?

The Dawπ [01:00:27]:
And I have actually been, I don't want to deserve guilty, but I mean, like, I have literally, with my programs, of an actual program. I'm not talking about a like, operative program, but like sustainability programs that I've installed. I have actually used beauty with it. I have actually used real practicality. I went ahead and threw a fucking picture of a turtle down just one time. I actually handed it to people, and we just use it. Right? Like, I tried, experimented all these different ways to shift the behavior. What was the most fascinating for me was when I actually was trying to give it away.

The Dawπ [01:01:14]:
Please, just do this thing. I just need to see it in operation. I just need to know that it's possible. The resistance. And this is from, like, some crunchy humans who believe in new earth and believe, like. Like, from a high level, it was.

Vision Battlesword [01:01:35]:
Are you talking about reusable utensils?

The Dawπ [01:01:37]:
Yeah, well, I'm talking about. I'm talking about the whole reusable system. Right. Like, that whole thing. And I remember that moment standing in the field and, like, what. What is actually behind. Operating behind that? Because these are. These are the humans.

The Dawπ [01:01:55]:
And that, I would. That, I feel, would. Would demonstrate it at the highest level for me, for my satisfaction. And there was resistance. That was very interesting for me.

Vision Battlesword [01:02:10]:
Are you saying that people didn't want to use reusable utensils, and instead they preferred to use disposable?

The Dawπ [01:02:18]:
Yes.

Vision Battlesword [01:02:18]:
Even crunchy humans preferred it.

The Dawπ [01:02:20]:
Absolutely. I witnessed it over and over.

Vision Battlesword [01:02:24]:
So. That's weird, right?

The Dawπ [01:02:25]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:02:25]:
So what's the program going on there?

The Dawπ [01:02:28]:
I don't know.

Vision Battlesword [01:02:29]:
That's really confusing to me, because the way I understand it is every single thing about the program of having your own personal utensil kit is superior. There's no downside to it that I'm aware of. It's not like you're making a trade off between this or that. It's just. This is just better than that. I don't see it any other way than that. So what do you think is the program? What do you think? There's got to be. What's creating that resistance.

Vision Battlesword [01:03:00]:
There's got to be a program there. What is it?

The Dawπ [01:03:03]:
I don't know. Yeah, I don't actually know. That was the part that. It wasn't personal. It was just. I stood there with, like, real. Real curiosity and a level of compassion. Like, is there any other way that I could do this? Is there any other way I could posture this that would invite that shift? So it's actually.

The Dawπ [01:03:29]:
It's just. I'm curious. I don't actually have an answer to it right now.

Vision Battlesword [01:03:32]:
You know, there's another. There's another thing like that that it's just. There's something underneath. Under the surface here that if we can get at it, we will have done a service to humanity. We can figure this out. Reusable shopping bags. I don't think I'm the only person that's like this in life. But, you know, I go through life, and then sometimes, you know, I'm running a program, and then sometimes I'm introduced to a new concept that has just not occurred to me before.

Vision Battlesword [01:04:02]:
For whatever reason, it slipped my, it just slipped out of my awareness, but somebody brings it to my attention. Hey, did you know that there are canvas shopping bags that you can carry your groceries in, and instead of throwing them away, you just fold them and put them on a shelf, and then you take them with you again to the next time to the store? And they're better bags in every possible way that you can imagine than a plastic or a paper shopping disposable shopping bag. They are physically superior. They have a better experience to them. They're more durable, they're going to carry more weight. They're just more pleasant to interact with. And, but on top of that, you're also not creating trash and waste in the environment and consuming resources unnecessarily. It's like you don't even have to do it for that reason.

Vision Battlesword [01:04:55]:
That's just like an extra, that's just like an extra benefit. Like, oh, and also it's smart, but it's just better. And for years and years and years, there is so much resistance. Maybe there still even is. I mean, we live in Austin where it got forced down everybody's throat, whether they liked it or not, which I don't agree with, actually. I don't think that's the right approach to how to do things is to do it by mandate and to do it by force. But we live in Austin where it did get forced down everybody's throat, and now it has kind of become more or less the norm. Although there's some stores, you can still get a disposable, truly disposable shopping bag.

Vision Battlesword [01:05:33]:
But, like, what is the program behind that? What is the program behind the utensil thing? What is the program behind these things? Things where people lock in on an inferior solution?

The Dawπ [01:05:44]:
I have no idea.

Vision Battlesword [01:05:44]:
They lock in on it and it becomes religious.

The Dawπ [01:05:48]:
I wouldn't. What if you took the idea of mandate out? What if there is this process in place where you go buy your groceries, there's a plastic bag there, and someone's like, wait, these are, we've got this other system. Just bring your own. And that those, those things just go away because they are no longer serving any greater purpose. That, to me is not a mandate. That, to me is right action. That, to me is, would solve a lot of problems if, if, once we discover that there are things that could be changed, then just change them. And don't, don't, don't make it a column, don't make it a.

The Dawπ [01:06:32]:
A debate, this or that, right? It goes away. And then, I mean, I know for myself how many times I had to carry groceries out in the loose, in the basket or in my arms because I forgot my damn canvas bag, right? And then it became a habit and then it became a way of life and then, you know, I lived happily ever after. But on that, it's the only reason it had to become a mandate is because there was a conversation before about, like, should we, shouldn't we. Well, while y'all are duking that out, just take the fucking bags away and do the. Put a system in place that works, sure.

Vision Battlesword [01:07:14]:
But what we're kind of sort of talking about here, it seems to me, is about competition of ideas. And that brings it back to my board game. Remember that the board game is essentially about how do ideas compete with each other and why are some more successful than others. And it becomes fun because we get to create a whole new idea that doesn't even exist in the world, and then we get to play it out on this board game and see how it lands in the minds of humans and see how it spreads in the population in different environments. But that's what's really happening in real life. And so there really is an actual competition of ideas going on. Wherever at a festival, there's an a b choice presented right then and there. Go to the silverware stand and pick up your silverware kit.

Vision Battlesword [01:08:00]:
Don't even have to buy it. You can even just rent it for the weekend or just walk over here and get plastic utensils and cardboard containers and throw them in a trash can 20ft from where you consume the food 20 minutes later and perpetuate the cycle. Program a, program b, your choice. One of them seems to have a better actual lived experience, quality of life to it, and is better for the environment. The other one is a shitty, cheap version of reality that creates problems in the environment. Your choice. And then there's competition, and people consistently choose that other thing. If there's 20 grocery stores in the town and one of them says that's it, no more disposable bags, we're not doing it.

Vision Battlesword [01:08:47]:
And that has actually happened. I think what natural grocer is one of those? And I think there's others. But anyway, you know, there's a grocery store that says that's it, we're not doing any more disposable bags, you got to bring your own. We're happy to sell them to you here, whatever. That's just the way it is. And people just consistently go to the other place. They're voting with their feet, they're voting with their dollars. They're subscribing to the idea of, I prefer the disposable system.

Vision Battlesword [01:09:15]:
I think that's inherently superior for some reason. That seems better for me in my life, and that's like the marketplace of ideas, where things have to out compete each other. So, yes, we can take the first move, like being that first grocery store that just says no. But other than a top down authoritarian organization like the government coming in and stepping and saying, thou shalt enforcing everyone to do it, everyone's not just gonna do it. And then it's up to people to run whatever programs that they run, and decide whatever behavior they want, how they want to live their lives. And I think, like, that's the deeper question is, like, what is that program? What is the program that causes people to get locked in on disposable bags, disposable silverware, disposable lifestyle in general, but also, like, okay, let's bring it full circle back to Covid to get locked in and to get religious about behaviors and activities that objectively are self harming. I don't get that.

The Dawπ [01:10:24]:
I don't get it either. It's. There's another layer that just came up for me in this. So one of my taglines or one of my fundamental questions is, how are you fed? And that's not just, how do you. How do you get it from the plate to your mouth, right? That goes into. Let's. So let's. Let's.

The Dawπ [01:10:44]:
Let's go back to the food conversation, because, like, I do have a belief about the program of food. I have. I have a belief that it is, um. That we believe as a species that we're running some kind of deficit in that area, that we. That fundamental piece of it, that it's kind of locked in there because it also hits in that part of the brain that it hits with survival, because there is a certain amount of, like, you know, food and water and air and sunshine that we actually do need. I don't think we need it at the high levels that we think we do, but there is, I think, in that that you just were talking about underneath that, which is the. How people are fed, and another, like, layer on the program that is actually hitting deeper at a core survival thing. So when I was studying dianetics and I've talked about this a lot when I was studying dianetics in college.

The Dawπ [01:11:49]:
And one of my favorite pieces is, like, if you imagine an old school projector, school projector, where you put transparencies on and the screens, the light is, what? Blank right now. And then you put a transparency on there. It has an image or some words, and it projects that up onto the screen. And then we take another one, and without removing the other transparency, you put another one on top. And so now you've got a two layered image up on the screen. And then if you keep adding, there's distortion, and one has nothing to do with the other, but it's still on there. And somehow we're making coherence out of these transparencies that are now projecting something. And so when I was sitting in a dianetic session, they were.

The Dawπ [01:12:35]:
We were breaking down a. I was struggling with something, and we were breaking it down. And they asked me to look at the wall and to start seeing if I could break down the layers, the transparencies that were on, that were being projected on there and how one had nothing to do with the other. So maybe. Maybe there is a previous one that has to do with, like, eating to survive and what that looks like. And then you put some layer in there and then encode it with some sound or some fear or some Jesus, right? And the next thing you know, you've got a fully baked bullshit belief that has no coherence. So we're trying to, as intelligent people, break that down and make it make sense, but it actually doesn't make sense because there are some. There are some pieces in there that don't belong.

Vision Battlesword [01:13:32]:
Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense to me. The programs are beliefs, but it still is the question, you know, like, what is the belief that leads someone to feel resistance, active resistance to when. When presented with, hey, maybe you never thought of this before, but you actually can personally own your own utensil kit that will last you for the rest of your life if you just take care of it. You could actually will it to your children. This thing could last multiple generations if you just take care of it. You can carry it around with you in daily life the same way you carry around anything else in your bag or your purse, along with your phone and your cosmetics and your notebook or whatever these other types of things is that you may carry around with you in life.

Vision Battlesword [01:14:25]:
And then on the spot, any single time that you need to eat something, boom, you whip out your utensils and you're good to go clean them up. A little put them away and move on. And you're self sufficient. And better than that, you get to eat with proper utensils, not shitty plastic stuff. You actually get to eat with proper utensils anytime, any place. You got a napkin in there too?

The Dawπ [01:14:50]:
Maybe you prefer chopsticks? I get to eat. Not I gotta eat. Yeah, there's a piece of that in there that is fundamental, which is I have my lunch break. I've got 1 hour to shove food in my face hole. Right? But there's that. That's layered in there and it has a root into survival.

Vision Battlesword [01:15:13]:
This is really interesting. We're finally. Yeah, you found the root. Wow. We're getting there. Because it has something to do with survival. It has something to do with self sufficiency. Like I want to roll with my own bag.

Vision Battlesword [01:15:27]:
I want to roll with my own utensils. You know, I don't want to rely on stuff that I have to pick up along the way. And what if it's not even there? But this is mine. You know how many compliments I get? I've had these bags for years now. I still, I don't know, weekly. I feels like it's certainly a couple of times a month. Get compliments on my Buc ee's canvas shopping bags because they're just so unique and so iconic and everybody recognizes Buc ees and everybody loves buc eesdehe. You know, I get attention for my shopping bags.

Vision Battlesword [01:16:01]:
I love rolling with my own stuff. I love making that a part of my personality. I love rolling with the utensil kit I've received from you. I love whipping it out and showing it to people. Also the utensils. No, I'm just kidding. I love pulling up my utensil kit, you know, and just the reactions that I get from it. Like, that is so smart.

Vision Battlesword [01:16:24]:
I had never even thought that that was a possibility. Like, isn't that weird? Isn't that weird that we live in a culture where you never thought that that was a possibility? Isn't it weird? Like, what is this deeper level program that mother culture has indoctrinated us with? That we have some kind of a belief system that somehow we're helpless in this world, that we go about like naked without any resources or without any tools or technology, and we're just receiving, receiving it from wherever we go. And the only valuable thing that we have in our possession is money to trade for all of the things that we need. It's like a self sufficiency, personal responsibility, basic survival program that's what we're uncovering here.

The Dawπ [01:17:11]:
It was at least 20 years ago, and I was listening to NPR, and I remember exactly where I was at on the road. And they were interviewing these two guys who had invented bottled water. And this was a glorified celebration of powerful, successful marketing that was the, like we are bringing to you today. So and so and so and so. Right. And they were talking about the initial idea of bottling water. And one in particular, one of the guys on the team was like, this is never gonna work. And I'm listening to this, and I wasn't.

The Dawπ [01:17:53]:
I wasn't in. I hadn't started my sustainability thing yet in Dallas, but, like, the other guy's like, no, you just wait and see. You create a need. And when he said, you create a need, I remember having to pull over the car, and I was so deeply disturbed, but not. Not because I wasn't, like, thinking at the level we're thinking at right now. I wasn't having this kind of existential, like, you know, awareness. I was. I was so upset.

The Dawπ [01:18:21]:
I was so angry and everything about, like, I felt, like, so much distortion in my field. I felt, like, literally, like I was being turned upside down. And it was. There was something. I can't explain what happened to my brain and to my energy body and to, like, my personal circuitry listening to this conversation, because that was a time period when there was success in marketing and selling your product and was the thing, the theme, the goal. Right. And it caused pain. Like, it caused pain in all my systems, like, pain and confusion and things like that.

The Dawπ [01:19:05]:
And I think about that today when I look at the bottled water phenomenon, and they were. They were interviewing them after the fact. They had already. They had already had provable success, proven success at that point. So this obviously had come before, but. But it was this idea of, like, I mean, because water, as I understand it, and we understand it, is, you know, kind of our life force, and it's like bottling the sun. Right? Like, yeah. What gives you the right and how, like.

The Dawπ [01:19:37]:
And to take something so fundamental to our survival and market it. So there's the piece. Like, you take something so fundamental to human mental survival, which is where do we go when we die? What is my, you know, all that and market it with. With something. Like they're taking. There's. There's things. I don't know.

The Dawπ [01:19:57]:
These are they. But things are used as. And we're being manipulated. It's a manipulation tool. Right. So that's interesting.

Vision Battlesword [01:20:08]:
That reminds me of a story about a time when one of my programs got shattered. And it's just such a. Such an interesting turning point for me. And this has happened to me so many times. So, you know, that I've been to a lot of festivals. I've kind of become a little bit of, you know, like a festival. I don't know. I'm experienced.

Vision Battlesword [01:20:32]:
I'm very experienced at going to camping festivals, EDM, transformational jam band type of festivals. And there's, like, a culture there, and there's, like, a way that you learn how to prepare yourself for getting your needs met while you're in a festival. And I remember the first time I went to gem and jam festival out in Tucson, Arizona. I went out there, and one of the things that I had learned in all of my. Over a decade of festivaling is that the first thing that you do when you get to the festival is you find the source of water. And in particular, I would always, because I just learned the rules and the ropes and, like, you can't get through security because they're going to take away your water, and they're going to take away your water bottle, which that, by the way, deserves inspection it do. So the first thing you have to do is go in and get a water bottle. This is my program.

Vision Battlesword [01:21:26]:
Go in, find a source of water, get a water bottle, find the water refill so that you can fill up your water. Got it. So I go in there now, all of this, like, immediately when I arrived, though, and. And started seeing, like, how this whole festival is being organized and managed, I realized, like, there's some very different programs running here than anywhere I've ever been before just because of the way that security was being orchestrated. I mean, this is really, really funny. Like, I'm there with my. My partner, my fiance at the time. We walk up to the gate, and I'm, like, prepared for the, like, the full blown, like, strip search security check, like, experience.

Vision Battlesword [01:22:00]:
Like, empty everything out. Like, take it all out, blah, blah, blah, blah. And there's, like, nobody else in line. There's nobody else around. We're the only two people there. And there's just this, like, you know, older, hippie looking woman who's, like, at the gate, like, checking tickets. And I'm like, all right, well, what do you need? Take it all out. Like, blah, blah, blah.

Vision Battlesword [01:22:15]:
She's like, no. She's like, do you have a ticket? I'm like, yeah, we have a ticket. Here you go. And I was like, is there anything I need to know? Is there anything I need to do. And she's like, oh, yeah. Here's one thing you should probably know. If you're a wristband, if the thing on your wristband gets frayed, you can just burn it with a liner. Just burn it off with a liner.

Vision Battlesword [01:22:34]:
I was like, thanks. She's like, welcome to gem and jam. Have a nice time. Like, okay. So I go in, and I'm like, a heat seeking missile for the water. And I walk up to any number of vendors, and I'm asking, do you sell water? No, don't sell water. Do you sell water? No, don't sell water. I finally, I go up to a vendor and I say, hey, you know, can I get a bottle of water? And they say, look, man, we don't sell water here.

Vision Battlesword [01:23:02]:
And immediately I just got. I got so angry, and, like, like, my reaction, like, you're a festival and you don't have water. Like, what are you thinking? This is unsafe. How dare you? Like, oh, and let me guess what. There's somewhere else I have to go, and you're going to extort me for water. I'm going to have to pay all this money or whatever it is. I don't get it. And I'm having this conversation.

Vision Battlesword [01:23:27]:
I'm like, what do you mean you don't sell water? How could you not sell? He's like, no, no, we don't sell water here. That's not. This. This is not that kind of place. We don't sell water here. And I was like, look, do you have a water refill station? He said, yeah, right over there. Freely available. We don't sell water here.

Vision Battlesword [01:23:49]:
And I was like, ding, ding, ding. I was like, I'm in a completely different culture than anything I've been in before. You know, it. I had to completely rewrite my paradigm around. I was so locked in, like, maybe this is. This is. In this moment, I'm, like, having a transformational experience where I'm uncovering this program. I was so locked in on this idea that I had to buy water.

Vision Battlesword [01:24:12]:
I couldn't even hear it when someone was just telling me in clear terms, you don't have to buy it. You can just have it.

The Dawπ [01:24:21]:
And they just did it differently. Like, there was no, there was. It was just. You walked into a world where it was actually already different.

Vision Battlesword [01:24:27]:
Yes.

The Dawπ [01:24:28]:
And. And it was just the way it became.

Vision Battlesword [01:24:30]:
Yes.

The Dawπ [01:24:30]:
And then after the. And then. And then now that is your. Your level of expectation, right, right. We just do that. We just build a world where it is water runs free. So I'm for so many different methods in this shift. And I'm also just for abrupt shifts, too.

The Dawπ [01:24:52]:
Yeah, gradual changes, abrupt shifts, pattern disruptions, raging storms, as well as, you know, just a gentle popping through into another. Another paradigm.

Vision Battlesword [01:25:05]:
It seems to me that one thing that's really important if we want to live a new story, live a new program, is consistency. And that's been really hard for me because, you know, it's like you're trying to. It's almost like we're all swimming around in this ocean where we're swimming in this water, which is all of the stories and programs of our culture, mother culture. And in trying to live in a different story and trying to maintain your own programs, it's almost like you're trying to blow up a bubble around yourself. And it's hard to maintain that because there's pressure. There's always pressure coming in on it from other directions. But if we can remain consistent, if we can remain true to ourself, our programs, and find other people that share those same programs and, you know, band together to create a bigger bubble that we can sometimes all play in together, that's easier for us all to maintain against that pressure. And just every single time we come in contact with people, I feel like this is really the key.

Vision Battlesword [01:26:15]:
You know, every single time people see my bucky's shopping bag and think, that'd be really cool for me to have, or every single time people see my utensil kit or your utensil kit and think, how come I never thought of that? Or every single time somebody, you know, bumps up against just a. Just a radically different culture of, like, no, we don't sell water here. Water is free. Water's for everybody. Like, we don't believe in that. And by the way, didn't you bring your own container? Sounds like you need a container more than you need water.

The Dawπ [01:26:46]:
Are you thirsty? Yeah, because we really don't want you licking the faucet.

Vision Battlesword [01:26:51]:
But, like, every time we touch somebody's life like that, that's an opportunity for the program to transfer. And maybe this is the day for someone where their program breaks down, their hooks dissolve, and they can't. They have to look at it a different way.

The Dawπ [01:27:06]:
There's also a piece where they look at it as progression. So somebody had brought, set up the. And there was somebody, somebody mentioned one time, like, okay, at one point you had a payphone, and now you have a cell phone. Nobody. No one even thinks about the payphone anymore. It just went away. Like, it just stopped being a thing. This other thing is viewed as progression, right? So this idea of, like, you know, there is.

The Dawπ [01:27:27]:
There's literally water on every corner, right? Like that. In. In, you know, in. Without it being nefarious, is a idea of abundance. And, you know, look, here's water everywhere. You can just literally. It just. Right.

The Dawπ [01:27:41]:
Without thinking of the manner of distribution of it and presentation of it, people feel like they're evolving and progressing on some level, too. It feels like.

Vision Battlesword [01:27:54]:
And some of that does represent real progress. And sometimes, many times, I think we're tricked into thinking that just because things are changing, that means they're progressing.

The Dawπ [01:28:06]:
Right.

Vision Battlesword [01:28:07]:
But, like, there's also the concept of the progression of a disease, especially when it comes to, I think about the great forgetting. It's not necessarily progress that we don't know how to make our own food, that we don't know how to necessarily build things or increasingly even navigate in the world without technological assistance. Not even technological assistance, but literally just being told what to do. Just being told where to go. What to do. Go five steps this way. Turn right. Go five steps this way.

Vision Battlesword [01:28:37]:
Turn right. That forgetting that collective amnesia that we're experiencing of actual real life skills, and you and I have had this conversation about how. How important I feel that that is to our development as humans. Not just our survival value as humans, but our actual, like, personal, social, psychological, and spiritual development, knowing those things and how to do them. But that's not progress necessarily, to me.

The Dawπ [01:29:03]:
No, it's not. And there's a piece you said in there, too. It has to do with our food. Why would we turn our food source over to somebody else to rely on something else for something that is actually so fundamental to our survival? Then we've just turned the keys of the car over to somebody else to drive.

Vision Battlesword [01:29:23]:
Yeah. So we can just look at that. Payphone versus cell phone. A cell phone is a technological marvel that can do a million things that a payphone can't do and is superior in a million ways to a payphone. And there's one way, though, that's kind of important, that it's not superior, because.

The Dawπ [01:29:42]:
That'S how they get through in the matrix. Yeah, I know.

Vision Battlesword [01:29:47]:
Because it can be turned off remotely. It's not something you can physically walk up to. And if you've got coin, put some coin in. And now I have access to communications. I was certainly. They could turn off a pay phone also. But true, you get the idea. It's.

Vision Battlesword [01:30:01]:
It's a shift. That's the fundamental program. It's a deeper, deeper level program. It's a shift from self reliance to dependence.

The Dawπ [01:30:11]:
It's. It's the feral feline to the. To the fat house cat.

Vision Battlesword [01:30:14]:
Yes. Yes.

The Dawπ [01:30:16]:
Yeah, the, like, fat house cat. Unless you open that can of food, it's gonna be like, yes. I mean, I think they figure it out eventually, but not if they can't unlock the door and get outside.

Vision Battlesword [01:30:30]:
Well, let's bring it full circle. So there's some new programs that we think we want to embody in our lives, right?

The Dawπ [01:30:39]:
Sure.

Vision Battlesword [01:30:40]:
What are they?

The Dawπ [01:30:41]:
Behaviors that live in cooperation with our environment. Programs that invite us to look beyond a. Look beyond a situation into multiple alternative points of view and solutions and ways of thinking. There is a program that puts in the filter of questions, really filtering things through questions like starting with, is it true? Like, you know, those kinds of. Those kinds of things. Before just settling on something, there's a program of basic survival skills that are just fundamental and easy for our own lives. And also consistency. Discipline.

Vision Battlesword [01:31:35]:
So we can have a program called skepticism. We can have a program called open mindedness. We can have a program called Personal Responsibility, a program called discipline, a program called environmental consciousness or ecological consciousness. And something about. I don't know exactly how to sum it up into a neat little word package, but a way of making decisions, settling disagreements, resolving tensions, that is multi perspective oriented, more open ended. I don't know what the word is for that program yet. Well, I made up some words for it, but not as neat and tidy as discipline. Maybe the very, very best thing that we can do, if we really do want to see more of these programs in the world, is to be really consistent in our own lives with how we show up all the time and be in integrity with the programs that we would really most like to embody, to act in integrity with them consistently.

The Dawπ [01:32:42]:
Agreed.

Vision Battlesword [01:32:44]:
Is there anything else about programs that's important to you? That's.

The Dawπ [01:32:48]:
No. Just the awareness that they're there and that there's so many of them operating. And actually, there's a piece of it where it's part of our design, like, literally, our electrical magnetic chemistry in our bodies is designed to process information and actually benefits from these programs that we're actually. It is actually part of form and function. Like, okay, if that's how we are, then, yeah, we can stall some things that really are all those things that have just been listed and actually start to really experience a different kind of life. That's exciting.

Vision Battlesword [01:33:38]:
Well, I love what you just said there because I think that a lot of times, especially in our circles, we tend to use the word program almost as a pejorative meaning. It's like something that we look at as a bad thing. Any program is a bad thing. We got to get your programs. We got to find those. We got to get those programs out of there. You're being triggered by a program all these ways that we use that word. But I love the point you're making here because it's like, what else are we made out of other than programs in a certain respect? And it's not really so much about how do you know, how do we find your programs or get rid of your programs.

Vision Battlesword [01:34:17]:
It's more just like the question. I would love for us to just be able to. To ask each other the question in a completely curious, neutral, non triggered way. I would love for us to talk about, what are your programs like in our culture? I mean, just between all of us. So what are your programs?

The Dawπ [01:34:37]:
Not on camera. You know what I mean?

Vision Battlesword [01:34:39]:
Good luck with that one. But that's the kind of modeling that I'd like to take into the world to normalize that. Let's just talk about that. What's the program? And it's not something to be ashamed of or to be judgmental about and just be like, yeah, these are my programs. I was walking around in my life with a program that water costs money and it comes in a bottle, and now I'm walking around with a program. Water is an important resource, and I really want for mine to be clean. And I'm actually very suspicious of the water that's in a plastic bottle right now in my life. Our programs are what we're made of, and our programs are what we're running all the time.

Vision Battlesword [01:35:19]:
But until we can actually ask ourselves the question, hey, what is the program of Christianity? What is inside there? What is the program of Jesus? What is inside of that story? What is inside of that character or of any religion or of any philosophy or of any ideology or propaganda? I think we're. We're going to be run by our programs instead of us running them.

The Dawπ [01:35:43]:
Indeed.

Vision Battlesword [01:35:44]:
Thanks for the conversation.

The Dawπ [01:35:46]:
Thank you.