Vision Battlesword [00:00:00]:
Vic Chindle. We've been having a super, super stimulating conversation for the last hour or so which has led us along many winding and crisscrossing paths, including topics from magic to belief to knowledge. What else have we talked about?

Vik Jindal [00:00:19]:
Yeah, I mean, I think that that's basically right.

Vision Battlesword [00:00:22]:
Oh, we talked about presence, the meditative quality of riding a motorcycle and why that causes you to become present. We talked a little bit about how there can be magic and also wisdom and truth, deep truth hidden in mundane things that we take for granted and don't notice that we filter out of our perception. And I think that's really been the common theme of what we've been talking about for the last little while is like the things that we filter our.

Vik Jindal [00:00:56]:
Perception, what's the thread?

Vision Battlesword [00:00:59]:
That is the threat.

Vik Jindal [00:00:59]:
Is it? Yeah, yeah, that is the threat.

Vision Battlesword [00:01:01]:
Yeah. And how, how we, you know, what are we missing out on? What could we be seeing, experiencing if not for the rigidity of our own filters or the, or the limitations of our own filters that sort of inherently create, I guess, in a way the reality, the internal reality that we experience. And so we looped back around to our previous conversation about open mindedness and the analogy of the dark room.

Vik Jindal [00:01:29]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:01:30]:
Do you want to just kind of pick up there?

Vik Jindal [00:01:31]:
Yeah. Just to like restate the analogy I guess first. And the analogy keeps changing, but I'll just go with the original for right now.

Vision Battlesword [00:01:38]:
Yeah.

Vik Jindal [00:01:38]:
So it's this idea that our minds, for lack of a better term, our minds are a dark room that expands infinitely in all directions. And as we learn things, we're turning on light in the part of the room. So when we learn something and illuminate that thing and over the course of our lives we're walking around this room and illuminating different things that we're learning. And to some degree we're just lighting up more and more of this room, but it's infinitely dark and expands all around us. And if we are closed minded, this is the original analogy, if we're closed minded, it's like putting walls in that room. And if we put up enough walls, it becomes a box and we're lighting up more and more inside that box and we sort of say, oh, I know everything, when actuality the whole outside of the box is completely dark. And so that's the limiting nature of closed mindedness. Where we started to go with this, which I think is sort of the direction that you're talking about, is that the nature of those walls is actually like belief structures that we've created.

Vik Jindal [00:02:41]:
And let's say reality is formless and limitless. It's like, let's say, a data stream that's coming at us that we're in the belief structures. These walls that we form around us are filters by which we engage with reality. And we only form, we experience reality that is in line with the limitations that we've created. We filter out all the things that don't conform with the belief structure that we've created. And so that then suggests that we should be very mindful, I guess, about the filters that we're creating for ourselves and be more intentional about it.

Vision Battlesword [00:03:25]:
With that as the preamble or as the context. Who are you? Vic Jindal?

Vik Jindal [00:03:32]:
Yeah, I'm an individual that loves to understand things deeply, understand myself very deeply, so that I can live in a much more intentional way. And so the study of these things is something that I really enjoy in order to craft the life that I live with intention. I don't really know. As I think about that question more and more, I realize that it's almost impossible for me to answer in some sense, who are any of us really? I mean, we're constantly evolving. We have belief structures that are constantly evolving. We have value systems that are constantly evolving. So we're really just like receivers of this data stream that we're then just manipulating around us in the context of this conversation. So, yeah, I'm increasingly, for lack of a better term, open minded about who I am.

Vision Battlesword [00:04:29]:
Does that mean you're losing your identity or does it mean your identity is dissolving? Or does it mean it's moving into a more evolutionary? Like is, is your identity now more of a process, like an artifact?

Vik Jindal [00:04:44]:
Yeah, that's such a great way to question. That's a great next question. So I think the reason I'm having a hard time answering the question is because I'm realizing how much of my own inadvertent belief structures have formed the basis for who I think I am. And so as I remove belief structures that don't really serve me in some way, or that I don't want to have anymore, or that I'm inadvertently creating, the things I thought I knew about me are changing. And so if you were to take that at its limit, in some sense, if you remove all your belief structures, like, how would you define yourself at all? Right. And so as I go through the process of removing, fine tuning, evaluating the belief structures that belong there, that I'd like to have there, and even whether belief structures serve me at all, which will be part of this conversation, to narrowly define myself, to narrowly define anyone becomes more problematic, I think.

Vision Battlesword [00:05:54]:
Ah, this is such a perfect setup and such a perfect. What's the word? Callback or loopback to. I think everything that we're talking about, because it sounds like what you're saying is to define myself is inherently to limit myself in a way or like to define an identity is to narrow the scope of possibility. Identity.

Vik Jindal [00:06:18]:
Yeah. And you know, in our prior conversation, I had said that like to be fully open minded was to bring down all these walls, like the walls that we created or forms of closed mindedness, and that the goal would be to bring down all of the walls. And that's to be like truly open minded. And in some sense that is absolutely true.

Vision Battlesword [00:06:40]:
In some sense that is the goal is true.

Vik Jindal [00:06:42]:
Yes. Sorry. In some. Sorry. In some sense the ideal is to bring down the walls. I could, I could.

Vision Battlesword [00:06:51]:
You can make that. Okay, yeah, yeah, I can see that perspective.

Vik Jindal [00:06:54]:
I'm not, I'm. I'm saying like that could be one perspective that has some validity to it.

Vision Battlesword [00:06:58]:
Okay, that's fair. I'm not necessarily agreeing with it.

Vik Jindal [00:06:59]:
Yeah, yeah, that I'm saying that. But actually, as I, as I have gone down this process of evaluating it more, I think actually the more intentionally designing a structure around you that allows you to engage in the world in the way that feels more alive to you is better. Because if you were to completely dissolve all these walls, that may be like you would live in a mountain somewhere, you know, as a monk, you know, kind of meditating all day and who knows, you know, I don't know if that would remove so much structure that you couldn't actually function in society. And so to the extent you want to function in society, I do, you do, et cetera. I think belief structures can be helpful. The question is, can we create these belief structures with more intention rather than the inadvertent ways that we do them now? And I believe that it's true. But that implies that if these structures are much more malleable than we thought before, defining yourself is limiting in the sense that for this moment in time, you want to have this set of belief structures. And for another moment in time, you might have another set of belief structures that more fit what you're trying to accomplish at that point in your life.

Vik Jindal [00:08:21]:
And so in some sense your identity is like as you define it.

Vision Battlesword [00:08:28]:
Yeah. So we asked ourselves earlier the kind of thought experiment question. What would it actually be like? Yeah, what if, what if we could imagine. Can we imagine what Would that state be like of when all the walls are down?

Vik Jindal [00:08:44]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:08:44]:
Of when there's no belief system, when there's no belief structures. If again, taking it as a perspective to entertain, if that is the ideal or rather if that is the maximum potential, the maximum possibility for experience, if it's true that all belief structures or systems inherently create filters or limitations to experience, direct experience of reality, then what would it be like if they were all those filters were removed? Would it just be going back to the moment of conception? Would it be like going to a singularity? Would it be like a. Like a completely formless non dual state? What would it be? But in any case, if you kind of imagine it going in that direction, it does seem to indicate a state of non functionality from a perspective of this 3D material world that we cruise around and bump around and do our things in potentially.

Vik Jindal [00:09:45]:
Yeah. I think we're skipping a step maybe in this conversation of like more describing or discussing how this belief structure actually impacts on reality. Right. So like, like I think so too.

Vision Battlesword [00:09:58]:
But, but I. There's a couple more pieces that I want to put on the table just as far as the setup of things that we've already covered.

Vik Jindal [00:10:07]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:10:07]:
Real quick to like just kind of get all the tinker toys out of the table and let's start moving them around and see where they go. So that was one piece was like, okay, what if there was no belief system? What would that be like?

Vik Jindal [00:10:17]:
Right.

Vision Battlesword [00:10:17]:
And then there was another really important piece was because we were talking about magic.

Vik Jindal [00:10:22]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:10:23]:
And what you were bringing up, which I thought was really interesting line of thinking to pursue, is is there's the piece about magic, but then there's also the piece about trust in knowledge or trust in sources of knowledge. Trust in, trust in where did we. How do we know the things that we know?

Vik Jindal [00:10:44]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:10:45]:
Where did this knowledge come from? How did it come to me? Why do I trust the source of it when I mean.

Vik Jindal [00:10:51]:
And then how does that impact our belief structures?

Vision Battlesword [00:10:53]:
Exactly. When I think the point you made, which I think is very valid and I think it's also like kind of can lead to an existential crisis if you follow the line of thought too far.

Vik Jindal [00:11:05]:
And I think a lot of people are there actually.

Vision Battlesword [00:11:06]:
They might be.

Vik Jindal [00:11:07]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:11:07]:
But when you start actually asking yourself the question, which I have done, I've been doing it for a long time and it can be very disconcerting.

Vik Jindal [00:11:16]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:11:16]:
You ask yourself the question, how do I really know what I know?

Vik Jindal [00:11:19]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:11:20]:
Why do I really believe? I mean a Classic example, moon landing, flat Earth, different things. Right. You start asking yourself question, well, how do I actually know this to be true? I think if you start to consider how much you know from your own direct experience, or even your own direct reasoning of having worked it out for yourself, it's not a whole lot.

Vik Jindal [00:11:44]:
Yeah. So. Right. So that there's. Right. Two, two sources of knowledge.

Vision Battlesword [00:11:49]:
Yes.

Vik Jindal [00:11:49]:
Right. There's the source of knowledge that you get from direct experience. Correct. And then there's the source of knowledge that you get from trust sources. Right. Like you're reading something or you get from a teacher, you talk to people, and there's knowledge that comes. And, and if you really think about it, the percentage of the knowledge that you have that actually comes from, quote, trusted sources is vast, is, is huge. Is a huge proportion of the knowledge that you have rather than direct experience.

Vik Jindal [00:12:21]:
Right, right. And so we were talking about how like all these things, like the telepathy tapes are coming into our awareness and all kinds of different things that we wouldn't have entertained probably, you know, 30 years ago, quite as easily.

Vision Battlesword [00:12:35]:
Maybe people like you and me wouldn't have.

Vik Jindal [00:12:37]:
Yeah, probably. Right.

Vision Battlesword [00:12:38]:
And, and even I'm quite skeptical.

Vik Jindal [00:12:40]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. Right. And so. Or just different things that we're observing that I think people are more able to hold these ideas that they didn't previously hold. And I think part of the reason that that is happening is because the knowledge that we hold, let's say, from our own experience, direct experience, and from third party sources helps form our belief structure.

Vision Battlesword [00:13:06]:
Right.

Vik Jindal [00:13:06]:
And it forms like these walls, this box around us by which reality is filtered and that we experience. But in our society, what we're experiencing is a wholesale questioning of what we call trusted sources. Yes. Like everybody is feeling that no matter where you are on any political spectrum, we're all kind of feeling, do I trust this person? Do I trust that person? Do I trust this? Do I trust that? Whatever. So suddenly, if you think about the panoply of knowledge that you have in your head that you thought you knew, suddenly there's a whole host of those things that feel a lot more squishy.

Vision Battlesword [00:13:48]:
Yeah.

Vik Jindal [00:13:48]:
You're starting to question, is the thing that I know the true. Because now I'm questioning the source, the underlying foundation on which that knowledge was based. And so suddenly, and if that knowledge that you have formulated the belief structure that you have and you're starting to question the knowledge, suddenly the belief structure that you have becomes a lot squishier, a lot more malleable suddenly. Like the rigid walls are not as.

Vision Battlesword [00:14:22]:
Rigid or some walls can even come crashing down.

Vik Jindal [00:14:25]:
Come crashing down. Some, like, suddenly come crashing down. Right. And so. And if you think about these belief structures as forming your identity and you're like very deep in the process, not realizing how much those formulate your identity, and then they start, you know, being squishy or come crashing down. One, There's a crisis of identity that occurs, I think, for a lot of people in that. I think you're starting to see people, like, being in a state of, I guess, spiritual crisis that is like engulfing more and more people.

Vision Battlesword [00:14:58]:
I think the word crisis is correct. And then I think you can put a bunch of different words in front of it.

Vik Jindal [00:15:03]:
Totally.

Vision Battlesword [00:15:04]:
Can be identity crisis.

Vik Jindal [00:15:05]:
Totally.

Vision Battlesword [00:15:06]:
Spiritual crisis, existential, even like a reality crisis.

Vik Jindal [00:15:10]:
Totally.

Vision Battlesword [00:15:10]:
And I think, I think that one. I think that's really what's starting to unravel for a lot of people, myself included in a certain respect, is like, how do we know anymore what is real?

Vik Jindal [00:15:24]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:15:24]:
I think a lot of people are asking themselves that question in this age.

Vik Jindal [00:15:28]:
Of AI and all this digital.

Vision Battlesword [00:15:32]:
Yeah. Digital everything. And look, if I only know something because I saw it through a screen.

Vik Jindal [00:15:37]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:15:38]:
Do I really know anything?

Vik Jindal [00:15:39]:
Totally.

Vision Battlesword [00:15:40]:
Not sure anymore.

Vik Jindal [00:15:41]:
Totally.

Vision Battlesword [00:15:41]:
Or even what I've been told. So I know there's a lot of, like, new history coming to light and there's a lot of, you know, alternative facts and. Yeah, yeah. I think that we may be going through what, What. There's a name for it, the Cartesian crisis, because it essentially goes back to, you know, Descartes, the base Cartesian philosophy or fundamentals as a baseline of epistemology, you know, reasoning from that starting point of, okay, I have the capability to think. And now from this point, I have to work it out for myself from there. You know, what? Like, how do I. How do I build my way up to a working model of reality from.

Vision Battlesword [00:16:26]:
All right, I am a subjective identity that has thoughts. And I think a lot of people are bootstrapping back to that point, going like, okay, I don't. I don't know what I can believe anymore. I'm going to have to, like, start over and, and work from my lived experience. Yeah. Back up to something that feels stable.

Vik Jindal [00:16:44]:
Right. So again, if. If our belief structures are a filter for reality where reality has a lot of possibility, but our belief structures restrict our experience in some way as a filter where reality conforms to our belief structure, and then those belief structures start to change, not with intention, they're just changing without real. Like without just really understanding that they're even changeable to begin with, that can create anxiety and crisis, I think.

Vision Battlesword [00:17:19]:
But it can also create potential and opportunity. Well, is that where you're going?

Vik Jindal [00:17:22]:
Yes, that's where I'm going. So it can feel like that in the near term, but it ultimately serves us because it's just a matter of just getting a handle on it, on the fact that this is happening. And so these belief structures are actually completely malleable. And in plant medicine and different experiences that people have are ways of making belief structures more malleable. They help us do that through neuroplasticity, et cetera, that they help us experience. And so these belief structures, these filters for reality become more malleable. And so as these things are becoming malleable or disintegrating, people are now experiencing different aspects of reality they didn't think possible.

Vision Battlesword [00:18:07]:
For which we might call paranormal phenomena magic.

Vik Jindal [00:18:11]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:18:12]:
Altered states of awareness.

Vik Jindal [00:18:14]:
Totally.

Vision Battlesword [00:18:14]:
All this kind of stuff which I think ties it back to what you were saying earlier, which is if we go through the world with a belief system that says magic is definitely not real.

Vik Jindal [00:18:27]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:18:27]:
That says telepathy is a hoax. That says, you know, supernatural is a. Superstition is primitive thinking. If we go through life with a belief system that says the only things that are true and real are those things which can be detected by instrumentation of a materialistic worldview, we may not actually have the frame of reference to experience things which are actually happening.

Vik Jindal [00:18:59]:
Exactly. Let's. Let's do a more concrete example before we go to this. Like, because we. The magic thing, it's a little bit harder to grasp. Let's go to a narrow one. The Elon Musk example.

Vision Battlesword [00:19:09]:
Sure.

Vik Jindal [00:19:10]:
Okay. So he does things in his work life that are utterly amazing. Right. Like he's building this car company. He's building spaceship companies. He's doing all kinds of things that I think most of us, certainly me, would have deemed, like, this is impossible. Like, one of the things that always was said is, you cannot create a new car company in this country. It's just, they're too massive.

Vik Jindal [00:19:34]:
You would never be able to compete. They would crush you. You could never create a space company that's private. That would compete with all the governments of the world. And then he's doing stuff with those rockets that none of those nations have ever done. And I think it's because the nature of his filter. My filter says that those things are impossible. His filter didn't have that, governor.

Vik Jindal [00:19:58]:
It didn't have that limitation. His filter of his reality did not say that those things were impossible. So in his reality, he was able to create those things because his filter said that they're entirely possible. And so the difference if, in my reality those are impossible, I will never achieve that. In his reality, if they are possible and he's interested, et cetera, in doing those things, it is possible. And so that's the reality that he experiences.

Vision Battlesword [00:20:28]:
Here's another great example that we talked about a few moments ago or before we started the recording. Your experience when you lived in New York City, you know, just. Just like this is a very concrete, I think, very relatable example. Like, everyone's had this kind of experience where the power of your own mind to literally filter out ye sense data, to filter out sense perception. So you're living in New York, and I had this experience, you know, on the other end of the phone describing having a conference call or phone call with someone where they're noticing how much noise pollution there is in your environment. They can hear it quite clearly on the other side of the phone, and it's driving them, you know, a little frustrated or something. And you. But yet you're.

Vision Battlesword [00:21:11]:
You were immersed in that environment for so long that your brain learned how to actually literally create a filter so that you weren't even aware. You weren't even having the experience of, you know, sirens and traffic and whatever are the normal noises of a big city downtown. Like, we. We know that we're doing this.

Vik Jindal [00:21:32]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:21:32]:
We know that. Our expectations create our experience.

Vik Jindal [00:21:38]:
Yeah, I think. And so this is what's interesting is that, like, we think of it as purely a neurological filter, you know, in some sense, where it's like I'm just filtering out the noise and you're not, because you're not used. Like, you don't live in New York City. I lived in New York City. If you were calling me, I wouldn't hear it. I hear all the traffic and the sirens. But you do, because you're not having that same filter. And we think of it as just purely kind of a localized thing.

Vik Jindal [00:22:08]:
But really, I think that it is actually filtering at a much greater level. Reality.

Vision Battlesword [00:22:16]:
Yeah.

Vik Jindal [00:22:17]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:22:17]:
I mean, when you're talking, what I'm thinking over here is you put a label on something. This is such a scientific, materialist, kind of, like, thing to do.

Vik Jindal [00:22:26]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:22:26]:
You put a label on something. Oh, well, it's a neurological filter.

Vik Jindal [00:22:30]:
Obviously.

Vision Battlesword [00:22:30]:
That doesn't explain anything.

Vik Jindal [00:22:32]:
Yeah, yeah, totally.

Vision Battlesword [00:22:32]:
And it doesn't make it any less mysterious. Yeah, that's or even magical.

Vik Jindal [00:22:36]:
That's a great point.

Vision Battlesword [00:22:36]:
You know, like. Like relate it back to my thought experiment that I shared, you know, in.

Vik Jindal [00:22:40]:
That we have a habit of even limiting the evaluation of the experience.

Vision Battlesword [00:22:45]:
Yeah.

Vik Jindal [00:22:45]:
By the label, like you're talking about. Right.

Vision Battlesword [00:22:47]:
But when you actually think about it, what is a neurologic filter?

Vik Jindal [00:22:51]:
Yeah, totally.

Vision Battlesword [00:22:51]:
What is. How does that work even mean? Like, there's literal sense data that is loud enough to wake me up from sleep. That is loud enough to. And I literally don't hear it.

Vik Jindal [00:23:04]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:23:04]:
Like, my brain can do that.

Vik Jindal [00:23:06]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:23:06]:
And that brings me back to that thought experiment that I shared a little while ago, which is like, what if you could put on. Let's just say, physical glasses? In this case, you put on some physical goggles that in some way filters out certain spectrums of light or certain types of visual input. Filters them out so that certain objects in your environment become literally invisible. You can't see them while you're wearing these goggles because they're that specific shade of gray. The chair just disappears. It's that specific. Whatever it is. Can't see it.

Vik Jindal [00:23:43]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:23:44]:
But yet I know it's physically there. Or at very least, like, my. I can still sense it tactilely. I can bump into it. I can touch it. That would be a really confusing, disorienting experience. And my. What I'm proposing is that we know our brains are doing that because if you live in New York City.

Vik Jindal [00:24:03]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:24:04]:
For more than a month.

Vik Jindal [00:24:05]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:24:06]:
You stop hearing the traffic.

Vik Jindal [00:24:07]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:24:07]:
There's so many other examples of this. So in just taking that and expanding it to, like. Wow, wait a second.

Vik Jindal [00:24:15]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:24:16]:
What else is it possible that I'm missing?

Vik Jindal [00:24:18]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:24:19]:
How powerful actually, is my brain to create these neurological filters.

Vik Jindal [00:24:23]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:24:24]:
That creates what I call reality.

Vik Jindal [00:24:27]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:24:28]:
And how could that. How different could that be if my belief system was different.

Vik Jindal [00:24:32]:
Right. And so taking this further to its limit, if reality. Let's say we have been so conditioned to filter out so much of what reality truly offers through these constructs that we've created. What happens when you start to remove those governors? Right. What is it that we experience?

Vision Battlesword [00:24:55]:
Or if they just start to get a little mushy?

Vik Jindal [00:24:57]:
They get a little mushy. We start to, like, have experiences that are much more vast than we previously thought possible, which we might experience as magic. You know, we think of magic as supernatural. I was talking to a friend about this. We think of magic as a supernatural thing. He was saying, I don't believe in the supernatural. What does that even mean supernatural? So my point is actually I'm coming increasingly to the clear conclusion that magic is actually perfectly natural. It's just how reality works.

Vik Jindal [00:25:37]:
We just conceive of it, we put a label on it and we think of it as outside the boundaries of what is possible, when in actuality that is not true at all.

Vision Battlesword [00:25:46]:
Right.

Vik Jindal [00:25:47]:
It's just the filter that we've created such that we don't see it.

Vision Battlesword [00:25:50]:
Right, yeah. Just coming back to the Elon Musk example. And as I mentioned also, it's so unbelievable to me that anyone ever still says something with such arrogance or such certainty as that is impossible.

Vik Jindal [00:26:05]:
Totally.

Vision Battlesword [00:26:05]:
Because how many times have people like that been proven wrong? I mean, to the airplane, like we'll never be able to create a heavier than air, you know, machine. Like it just over and over and over and over again. And it's only impossible until. It's not.

Vik Jindal [00:26:20]:
Totally.

Vision Battlesword [00:26:21]:
Only impossible until someone decides to make it possible.

Vik Jindal [00:26:25]:
Totally.

Vision Battlesword [00:26:27]:
And, and, and that point, the word decide is the key. That's, that's the crux of the whole thing.

Vik Jindal [00:26:32]:
It's like choice.

Vision Battlesword [00:26:33]:
So again, to your point about magic or the supernatural phenomenon or whatever you want to call it, it's like as long as we believe that reality is inherently limited to this particular scope of experience, it seems very likely that that's what our brains will trick us or convince us that's what's happening.

Vik Jindal [00:26:55]:
Yeah, it'll cond.

Vision Battlesword [00:26:57]:
That's what it expects.

Vik Jindal [00:26:58]:
Exactly. You know, and there's all kinds of experiments about this about like how our brains actually are filling in so much of the detail. I can't recall any of the experiments right now. But you know what I'm talking about. Right. Whereas actually like our brains, they're obviously taking a lot of data, but like there's a lot. They're just filling in.

Vision Battlesword [00:27:17]:
Yeah, we're, we're, we're watching and listening to a high resolution 3D hologram.

Vik Jindal [00:27:23]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:27:24]:
Created internally through our virtual reality modeling system.

Vik Jindal [00:27:28]:
Right.

Vision Battlesword [00:27:29]:
Based on like 8 bit pixelated.

Vik Jindal [00:27:32]:
Totally. And we're just filling in and then we're just filling in the details.

Vision Battlesword [00:27:35]:
Right. Not just filling in, but we're like embellishing.

Vik Jindal [00:27:38]:
Totally. Yeah, yeah. It's making it completely different. Right. And so that's, I mean, and the question is like, what is the limit on that? And I would argue that the limit is like much, much, much, much, much greater, if any, than we have even been able to conceive. And so then we go back to your question about like, okay, so These belief structures are more malleable. And so can we take these belief structures? We certainly want to take down the belief structures that make us feel awful. Right.

Vik Jindal [00:28:11]:
Like, all the time. I think what we would consider limiting beliefs, like in a traditional sense, like limit our potential like we were talking about. But all belief structures under this rubric are inherently limiting because they're all filters. So then the question is though, does that mean take down all beliefs to your point, which is like taking down all the walls such that you see all of what reality has to give without any filters? And. And I think that might serve one in very limited instances for spiritual understanding. But I actually think that we need belief structure in place in order to be in this like 3D reality. Otherwise, if reality itself is effectively just a massive data stream that's formless, your belief structure creates the form in which you experience reality.

Vision Battlesword [00:29:11]:
Right. That's where I think we're headed. Yeah.

Vik Jindal [00:29:14]:
And so then if you can remove the things that you don't want and then more intentionally form these belief structures, that could be a really amazing life, I guess, you know?

Vision Battlesword [00:29:28]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I love where this is headed and we got there very quickly. But I think there's a lot more to explore too, which is that particular reframe that you just stated, it seems to me shifts things away from a bit of a moralistic overlay. When we talk about limiting beliefs or when we talk about the goal of open mindedness or the ideal of open mindedness or. Or things like that, where it becomes less about. More limitation is bad and less limitation is good, and it shifts from that to what kind of reality would I like to experience?

Vik Jindal [00:30:08]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:30:09]:
And how would I like to create that?

Vik Jindal [00:30:10]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:30:11]:
It becomes more of a choice and it becomes more of a. Well, intentional evolution.

Vik Jindal [00:30:17]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:30:17]:
You know, in a way. Meaning. Yeah. Maybe I don't actually want to knock down all of the walls.

Vik Jindal [00:30:23]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:30:24]:
Like another analogy is like a house, you know, or an apartment. It's like one could say, gosh, you know, all the walls in this place are really limiting my freedom of movement because I can't just go directly from here to there. I've got to go around this corner and down this hall and then open this door and such. But it's all contextual.

Vik Jindal [00:30:45]:
Yeah. I mean, if you had no walls, you'd have no house at all.

Vision Battlesword [00:30:47]:
You'd have no house at all.

Vik Jindal [00:30:48]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:30:49]:
You'd have no shelter.

Vik Jindal [00:30:49]:
Totally.

Vision Battlesword [00:30:50]:
If there were no interior walls, maybe you'd have no privacy, et cetera. So it's like why are these walls here is the question. Are they doing for me?

Vik Jindal [00:30:58]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:30:59]:
Or are they not doing anything for me? Is, is there maybe actually, like I'm imagine sitting in your apartment right now, and you've got a beautiful apartment with an open floor plan. We're in your living room, which is completely open and connected to your kitchen. And now if I imagine like a big wall dividing your living room for your from your kitchen with just a little window in it and maybe a small door, then I could imagine, like, that feels kind of limiting.

Vik Jindal [00:31:24]:
Yeah, totally.

Vision Battlesword [00:31:25]:
I would like to be able to see the kitchen. If I'm entertaining, you know, guests, I'm going to take that wall out.

Vik Jindal [00:31:31]:
Right.

Vision Battlesword [00:31:31]:
I have a reason for that, though. I'm trying to expand my space. But you wouldn't expand my mind.

Vik Jindal [00:31:37]:
But you wouldn't take out the wall between my apartment and the hallway.

Vision Battlesword [00:31:41]:
Or maybe not even the one between your kitchen and your bathroom.

Vik Jindal [00:31:44]:
Right.

Vision Battlesword [00:31:45]:
For a reason. Right. It's like there are reasons I. That this structure exists. Yeah. You know, but the, but I think the, the key insight here is asking yourself that question.

Vik Jindal [00:31:58]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:31:58]:
And evaluating your floor plan.

Vik Jindal [00:32:00]:
Yeah. And I think even as we're talking about this, you know, as you're talking about reevaluate your floor plan, it's like we have constructed our society in such a way based on these very rigid beliefs that could be conceived. Like we could consider those narrow in some ways.

Vision Battlesword [00:32:22]:
Correct.

Vik Jindal [00:32:22]:
And so the thing that's happening in society around the dissolution of knowledge of what we, of what we thought was things we knew, that then makes these walls more fuzzy. It feels rough. It feels like like we're going into some kind of weird, dark thing. But I think that this is sort of the awakening, actually, that people are talking about that also is an underlying current that is happening. And so, yes, there's this underlying anxiety that's felt by a lot of people as the, as the belief structures erode, which is related to the, the ego dissolution that they're probably feeling and dissolution of identity that then maybe creates a clampdown on what they thought they knew. I don't want to, I don't want to hear this. I don't want to see this. And so there's that push, pull.

Vik Jindal [00:33:12]:
But ultimately, the recognition that these belief structures are more malleable will long term serve us and could radically redefine how we interact with society. And so that could be really interesting, actually.

Vision Battlesword [00:33:30]:
Not just society, but all of reality.

Vik Jindal [00:33:32]:
Yeah, but I'm saying, like, us as a society, look, we'll go in. Baby steps through.

Vision Battlesword [00:33:37]:
Yeah.

Vik Jindal [00:33:37]:
Right. And so, like, I think that we are on the cusp of something really beautiful, for sure. But it will be a rough entry.

Vision Battlesword [00:33:50]:
As it always is. Yeah, well, yeah, I did a episode of this series called Breakthrough with a friend of mine named Michael Barr, and we explored a lot about what happens at the transition. The transition. The boundary between one phase or stage of whatever life experience, belief, et cetera, and the next. And there's a reason why we call it a breakthrough. Yeah, Right. And not just a, like, tiptoe over or a path through. Yeah, because I think, yeah, it's inherently disruptive.

Vision Battlesword [00:34:26]:
It can feel like a death. It can feel like a death and a rebirth. If you take the transformation analogy, you know, caterpillar to butterfly and so forth, like on the way from being a fully functional caterpillar to being a completely different kind of creature almost altogether. Yeah, there's a total disillusion of self that happens through that process. I think we're doing that individually. I think we're also doing that collectively. And my opinion is that we're doing it not just collectively as a society or civilization. We're also actually currently in that process at the species level right now.

Vision Battlesword [00:35:06]:
Yeah, I think we're in a very, very unique, special moment in the cycle of history.

Vik Jindal [00:35:12]:
I mean, by. By the way, I mean, you could.

Vision Battlesword [00:35:13]:
You could.

Vik Jindal [00:35:14]:
I mean, if we were really to take this in some really weird directions, I mean, you could also argue that it's happening at multiple species levels, like. Because, like, we have this idea that this is a belief that we have, for example, that we are the only ones that evolve.

Vision Battlesword [00:35:28]:
True.

Vik Jindal [00:35:28]:
And actually, I read this article recently where they were saying that dogs are, through their domestication, are becoming, like, more aware of their surroundings and more able to interact humans in a more nuanced way than we had thought possible or reasonable, because they're. They're, like, evolving as well, doing domestication, which makes total sense. And maybe we weren't able to see a lot of that stuff because of our, again, formal former belief structures that are now becoming more malleable. You know, just everything that we thought we knew. I mean, think about that. Like, so much of what we thought we knew we don't really know anymore. And so some of that stuff will maybe be a little bit unhealthy, like, in the sense that, like, it. Or come across as a little unhealthy or a little bit, like, you know, it'll go in, like, weird directions, let's say.

Vik Jindal [00:36:21]:
Because at first, as this dissolution happens, probably there's nothing a lot of people aren't going to be trained on the discernment aspect of it. And so you're like, okay, did we land on the moon? Did we not land on the moon? Did we do this? Do we do that? Like, who knows, right? And so, like, suddenly, is the Earth flat? Is it round? Like, people are going to question stuff and some of it's going in, like, weird directions. It doesn't feel like all that productive, frankly, to me, at least. But whatever. Not judging and.

Vision Battlesword [00:36:48]:
But I think it just goes to show you not to. Not to interrupt your thought process, but just to put a pin in that one point, I think that that level of questioning demonstrates how deep the Cartesian crisis is really going. Totally. And that. And as a phenomenon, I find it interesting and, I don't know, possibly helpful, but at least indicative of, like, the potential to recreate our collective belief system is pretty. Goes pretty deep.

Vik Jindal [00:37:15]:
Totally. Yeah, totally. Right.

Vision Battlesword [00:37:17]:
So I didn't mean to.

Vik Jindal [00:37:18]:
No, no, no, totally. And I mean, if you think about this, like, we haven't really touched on this, but like, that's sort of happening with like, alien kind of thought process that's happening out there and UFOs, like, where a lot of people are starting to believe more in that. And you could argue that as our belief structure around that changes, we are actually experiencing that phenomenon more.

Vision Battlesword [00:37:43]:
Right.

Vik Jindal [00:37:44]:
There's a guy named Thomas Campbell. I think his name is Thomas Campbell. He's a very interesting person. I want to read some of his books, but I was listening to him on an interview, and he's a theoretical physicist who's like, deep into astral projection and all kinds of stuff.

Vision Battlesword [00:38:01]:
So he's.

Vik Jindal [00:38:02]:
He has a particular ability to bridge the physics and some of these spiritual concepts in a way that other people can't. You know, it's.

Vision Battlesword [00:38:11]:
You know, it's not that uncommon. Right. I mean, like, just for people who we associate with some of the most important scientific breakthroughs or feats of technological engineering and so forth, to have been deeply religious or spiritual or even super.

Vik Jindal [00:38:27]:
I think the people that are on the frontier are like that. Like Einstein was like that.

Vision Battlesword [00:38:32]:
Isaac Newton comes to mind. Nikola Tesla, totally.

Vik Jindal [00:38:35]:
Like, people who are on the. Like really, like, because their minds are more open to what is possible is like their filters are more. Are less limiting. Right. And so I agree with you. Right. So. So anyways, he's one of those types.

Vik Jindal [00:38:49]:
He has this notion that. I really love that he's like, when you look out at a Telescope. Okay. When you. Let's say you have a telescope, you point it in a random direction in the sky that you. There is nothing that exists there until you look out the telescope. And then it's basically, there's a probability of what could be there based on your belief structure. So there's a small, small, small, small, small probability that it'll be a pink elephant, and there's a much, much higher probability that it'll be a star or whatever, and there's some kind of random probability distribution that occurs.

Vik Jindal [00:39:27]:
And then, boom, you see whatever it is that you see. And that is happening all the time. And then as our collective belief structure is changing, that would imply that the belief that the probabilities are changing of what we should see, and that might be increasing the reason that we're looking up and starting to see things in the sky that we didn't previously see before. And so that would be another way of thinking about this reality filter.

Vision Battlesword [00:40:00]:
Yeah. Well, that's really interesting because there's two different. Well, there's many different ways, but there's a couple of different ways that occur to me right now of how you could. Like what, what hypothesis you could suggest for that phenomenon. The phenomenon meaning that the more people start to believe in aliens, the more we all collectively may start to experience aliens.

Vik Jindal [00:40:25]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:40:26]:
Just to. Just to make it simple.

Vik Jindal [00:40:27]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:40:28]:
One of which is as we create a collective belief system, we may begin to manifest what we expect to be real.

Vik Jindal [00:40:37]:
Yeah. That reality is actually completely formless, and it's formed by, like, the version of reality that we're experiencing is just completely created in the construct of our belief structure.

Vision Battlesword [00:40:53]:
Right, right. Yeah. And. And again, even with the. Within the manifestation branch, there's another fork that you can go down, which is when we say, manifest. The experience of seeing, interacting with. Having the experience of aliens could be completely psychological.

Vik Jindal [00:41:11]:
Right.

Vision Battlesword [00:41:11]:
And we manifest it in our minds.

Vik Jindal [00:41:13]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:41:14]:
Or it could be actually tangible, meaning we manifest it into reality, into the material world. Then on the other side of the fork is the kind of removal of filters hypothesis, which is the more that we collectively start to believe in the existence of aliens and that we're being visited frequently, we actually begin to be able to see them.

Vik Jindal [00:41:38]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:41:39]:
Whereas before we couldn't see them because of the goggles that we were wearing.

Vik Jindal [00:41:43]:
I would argue that they're actually the same. What you're describing is the same. That reality is actually formless, except the reality that we're filtering in. And then we're experiencing a version of reality that's defined by our filters. And if we remove those, like, change those filters, our literally our reality is changing. And so, like, suddenly we are seeing things that wouldn't have existed at all had we not changed that filter.

Vision Battlesword [00:42:16]:
Yeah, right. And then there's a kind of a multiverse variant of that.

Vik Jindal [00:42:21]:
Totally, you know. Right, exactly.

Vision Battlesword [00:42:22]:
Suggestion that you.

Vik Jindal [00:42:23]:
Right. Because, like, based on the belief structure that we have. So there's a version of reality where belief structure is completely static and didn't change and we don't see.

Vision Battlesword [00:42:31]:
Right.

Vik Jindal [00:42:32]:
Aliens at all.

Vision Battlesword [00:42:33]:
And there's one more variant which I think I would be irresponsible not to at least point out because, you know, maybe anyone else could think of it, which is the actual magic trick fork of possibility. Where. Which brings us back to the original conversation we were having around illusionists and mentalists and stage magicians and stuff, which is. It could also be that we begin to collectively believe in aliens because we're being subjected to trickery. We're being subjected to illusion, totally psychological operation, whatever you may call it.

Vik Jindal [00:43:08]:
Totally. And then that then leads to the question of, can you induce new belief structures? Now it's getting based on trickery.

Vision Battlesword [00:43:21]:
Yeah.

Vik Jindal [00:43:21]:
Right, right.

Vision Battlesword [00:43:22]:
So if we trick enough people into believing in aliens, can we actually manifest them?

Vik Jindal [00:43:27]:
Yes.

Vision Battlesword [00:43:27]:
Into reality?

Vik Jindal [00:43:28]:
Yes.

Vision Battlesword [00:43:29]:
Yeah. That's interesting.

Vik Jindal [00:43:30]:
You know.

Vision Battlesword [00:43:30]:
Okay, well, here's the burning question that I've been on the tip of my seat waiting to ask when there was the right moment. And I feel we've finally arrived at the point where all the Lego blocks and Tinker toys are spread out on. On the play floor here. And so my question for you is, okay, we've used this word about a thousand times so far, but what is belief?

Vik Jindal [00:43:58]:
It is the way you define reality.

Vision Battlesword [00:44:02]:
I like that.

Vik Jindal [00:44:03]:
Yeah. It is the way you define reality.

Vision Battlesword [00:44:06]:
A belief is a way of defining reality.

Vik Jindal [00:44:09]:
Yeah. And so it's completely. I'm actually just having a realization that, like, this actually is completely related to your ego. Not in, like, a bad sense. Like, we all have a way that we relate to ego that is personal to us, and it's the way we relate to reality, the way we experience reality, etc. And so these beliefs form the entire way we experience reality. Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:44:41]:
There's something about belief that has to do with predicting reality. I think also it's definitely a statement about reality.

Vik Jindal [00:44:50]:
Yeah. Just explain what you mean by that.

Vision Battlesword [00:44:52]:
Well, you know, when I think of, you know, a belief structure, like the dark is not safe, for example, or things always fall down, I'm just. I'M just thinking of like beliefs, you know, the way, the way we normally frame belief statements.

Vik Jindal [00:45:13]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:45:14]:
Sometimes they seem to be a concrete description of facts that we think are true, and then sometimes they also seem to be predictions of what we think will happen in circumstances.

Vik Jindal [00:45:31]:
I think they're both true. And so like it's. It goes back to that probability matrix kind of. Thomas Campbell point of view, I guess to some degree is that like the dark is not safe, let's say, is the belief structure. Will you always experience bad things in the dark? No, probably not. Unless you're exceptionally unlucky, I'm guessing. But the probability that the dark is an unsafe place for you to be increases because your reality, your belief structure is increasing that probability. And so I.

Vik Jindal [00:46:05]:
E. The probability that something bad will happen in the dark is actually increasing the probability that you will experience a version of reality that is like, that increases based on your belief structure. And so I think this is something to be really keyed into is this idea that we create. This is getting very metaphysical, but I really think about the things like this, like, let's say. And I think this is like a lot of what people suffer from. I know I've personally experienced this. Like, I think we are in a. We are in reality creation, but completely unaware that we're doing it.

Vik Jindal [00:46:41]:
And that's the illusion that people talk about. And so like, it is like, let's say you have trauma that makes you feel like, unworthy or whatever. Right. And then. Or you just have a belief structure that you're going to fail at whatever, and then you fail. The experience then creates a worse feeling, more stories, more belief structures that you're. And it reinforces that thing that then actually causes you to circle the drain in your life where like bad things will happen, then bad things do happen that cause you to reinforce that view, maybe even become more negative. And that's where you have, like, if you have like these beliefs that you're forming, unaware that you're forming them, you're just automatically doing it.

Vik Jindal [00:47:29]:
You experience that reality, you then have like another bad experience. Like you're just kind of like forming a reality that you're just living in that. That keeps getting worse and worse and worse. And that's like how I think a lot of people live. And so can we step out of that? Can we get out of that mode of thinking? Yes, I believe we can. It's just sort of like stopping the automatic story creation that we do.

Vision Battlesword [00:47:59]:
Yeah, I'm following everything you're saying there. I Just I think I might have stumbled on something kind of interesting with this idea of beliefs as a statement of predicting the future or predicting, predicting what the expectation of reality is.

Vik Jindal [00:48:16]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:48:17]:
A lot of times they're like, they're forward looking statement.

Vik Jindal [00:48:20]:
Yeah. That. But there's.

Vision Battlesword [00:48:21]:
I'm just, I just want to like.

Vik Jindal [00:48:23]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:48:23]:
Call attention to what you just said. I believe that people can change their belief system or something along those lines. So it's again, it's like if you, if you really deconstruct the syntax, you are making a statement about what you think will happen.

Vik Jindal [00:48:40]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:48:41]:
Or at the very least, you're making a statement about how you think things are. And I'm just sitting here like breaking down like, what is the utility of this well, so. Phenomenon.

Vik Jindal [00:48:52]:
Yeah. So think about that. Let's think about that for a second. So it is, I think there was this idea, like Buddhists have this idea. There's a lot of different cultures that have this idea that reality is actually formless. And so this is like a house with no walls. It's like so formless that unless you have the belief structure, there's no, there's nothing that you can. There's nothing to latch onto.

Vik Jindal [00:49:16]:
There's nothing to construct around.

Vision Battlesword [00:49:18]:
Right.

Vik Jindal [00:49:19]:
You know, and so I believe, I believe so fervently. I feel like I know that these, these belief structures can be modified.

Vision Battlesword [00:49:28]:
I think the word structure is like critical here. Meaning, like that's actually. Why do we, we keep saying belief structure. Belief structure. And I think you're putting your finger on it right now. It's because the structure of reality is made of beliefs.

Vik Jindal [00:49:44]:
Yes.

Vision Battlesword [00:49:46]:
Without beliefs.

Vik Jindal [00:49:47]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:49:47]:
There is no structure.

Vik Jindal [00:49:48]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:49:49]:
It's just formless.

Vik Jindal [00:49:50]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:49:50]:
As you said.

Vik Jindal [00:49:51]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:49:51]:
But it's also, I think the way we. And maybe there's other ways to do it and maybe there's even other ways that humans could do it. Maybe this is a societal construct or a cultural or civilizational phenomenon. The particular way that we create beliefs seem to be in the form of statements of expectation. And then it would make sense why our reality matches what we continue to communicate to it, which is. I expect this. Oh, here you go. I expect this.

Vision Battlesword [00:50:22]:
All right.

Vik Jindal [00:50:23]:
Totally, totally. So like, let's say. Yeah, I mean, I think like that's right. I think that that's what it is. Like you have a story, let's say a belief in a story are kind of interlinked in some sense. You know, often there's a story that you hold that is effectively the basis for a belief Structure, or at least like, the way you interact with the belief structure is like, I'm terrible entrepreneur or whatever. Right. Let's just say that that was the belief structure.

Vik Jindal [00:50:46]:
Then you're just, you're making a prediction about every time that you're gonna go down an entrepreneurial route.

Vision Battlesword [00:50:54]:
That's what I'm saying.

Vik Jindal [00:50:55]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:50:55]:
I've never noticed that before. Yeah, that's what I was thinking.

Vik Jindal [00:50:59]:
And like, it. I think it depends on how fervently you believe it. Like, so, like, and then that would affect the probability of the, you know, in, again, in Thomas Campbell's framework at least. Right. It's like, you may have hope that you're not a terrible entrepreneur, but you have like the experience of being a travel entrepreneur, and maybe that's a little loosely formed, so you might still have good experiences even though you believe you're a terrible entrepreneur. And then there's people who are like, no matter what I do, there's I just always fail, blah, blah, blah, like, I'm just a loser, blah, blah, blah. And so then they just continue to experience that. And then likewise, there's some people who say I can just, I, I shit great businesses.

Vik Jindal [00:51:40]:
Like, they're just like, they can just do whatever they want, and it's just amazing. And I think that there's people with that belief structure, and they do it. Like, Elon Musk is like one of those people who can just create because his filter of reality for him says that he can, and that is literally the reality that he then experiences, period.

Vision Battlesword [00:52:02]:
So I think the other thing that beliefs maybe are useful for is, well, there essentially are survival programming. They're the rules that we think. We think the world, the universe, reality operates by these, this set of rules, and that if we conform to these rules, we'll survive.

Vik Jindal [00:52:23]:
Yes. I do think that that's like the way that we are able to conceive of it right now. It's possible that that could evolve over time, like our narrow ways that we're thinking about it now. Maybe, maybe reality is something that, like, we're putting a construct on reality. Maybe reality is so undefinable that we're, we are creating a belief structure about how reality works in order for us to interact with that belief, with that, with reality. So it is possible that as enough knowledge and time goes by, reality is even more formless, and then we could create new belief structures about how reality works.

Vision Battlesword [00:52:59]:
Totally.

Vik Jindal [00:52:59]:
So I'm not to get too, too out there about it?

Vision Battlesword [00:53:03]:
No, no. I think I Think so. I see what, I see where you're going and I'm going kind of the other you are.

Vik Jindal [00:53:08]:
I just wanted to like make a note of that. Like. So you're saying it's a survival mechanism. Under our current rubric, it's a survival mechanism. Like we, I. It's possible that we can't actually conceive of what reality is.

Vision Battlesword [00:53:20]:
I'm even thinking of, not even in our current rubric, per se. I'm like going back in time, evolutionarily speaking.

Vik Jindal [00:53:27]:
Yeah, yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:53:28]:
And I'm, I'm thinking of it as a human, as an animal.

Vik Jindal [00:53:31]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:53:32]:
Like that is the per. Or that is the function.

Vik Jindal [00:53:34]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:53:35]:
Of the belief system or the belief structure from an evolutionary sense is it's literally our software programming that allows us to operate in this hardware world.

Vik Jindal [00:53:47]:
Right.

Vision Battlesword [00:53:47]:
And if you compare humans like you were talking about before with you know, other animals of various levels of consciousness, self awareness, going through their own states of evolution. But if you think of like a human animal as at least being, if not unique, then highly unusual in a certain particular way. One of those ways is that we come into the world, you know, we're born into the world as a very peculiar kind of creature. This giant head, giant brain, very formless in terms of like the instinctual hardwired programming that we come into the world with. We're more of an empty vessel. Not a completely empty vessel obviously, but we're very much an empty vessel waiting to be programmed by the environment, by our caretakers, which is one of the things that makes us so universally adaptable. But it's very different than another type of creature, like perhaps a horse or a deer that is born and within a matter of minutes is up walking around, feeding itself. It didn't have to acquire so much of its belief system through learning, through environmental learning, or at least its survival system.

Vik Jindal [00:55:08]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:55:09]:
Through that environmental software based learning process. It comes pre programmed.

Vik Jindal [00:55:14]:
How do you know that it comes pre programmed? What do you mean? Like when you say the distinction between a horse's pre programing versus our pre programming, how do you mean that?

Vision Battlesword [00:55:24]:
I'm just looking at it from what can be observed in the like variability. More like the default functionality. Yeah, I'm saying like humans come into the world, they can't walk, crawl, talk, eat. Well, I guess they can suckle, but.

Vik Jindal [00:55:40]:
But like, what if nobody taught you how to walk, do you think you would not learn how to walk?

Vision Battlesword [00:55:46]:
Right? I think so, yeah.

Vik Jindal [00:55:48]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:55:49]:
I mean, I think that if a human is not what, like what's the heritage.

Vik Jindal [00:55:53]:
I'm curious. Sorry, Keep. Keep going. I. I interrupted you. I just wanted to make sure I understood the point because the thing that's coming up for me is that maybe a horse, for example, is not able to be as malleable with regard to the neuroplasticity.

Vision Battlesword [00:56:10]:
That's the point I'm making.

Vik Jindal [00:56:11]:
Yeah. Or. Or the malleable with regard to its belief structure. I'm saying whether that comes in or whether they're born with it, whatever, like whatever happens, they're just. Their, their beliefs are more rigid. Rigidly adhered to. Probably can't really.

Vision Battlesword [00:56:27]:
Can't really get in the mind of a horse. Yeah, necessarily. But, but by observation, what it looks like to me, and I think maybe other people have drawn this conclusion as well, is that at a minimum, I'm not going to make a comment on like how expansive or extensible the belief system of a horse or any other animal could be. But it looks like a horse or a deer or many other animals do come like an operating system with many apps pre installed, whereas we come more like a computer with a blank hard drive, practically.

Vik Jindal [00:57:05]:
Yeah, I think that might be just like, I don't know, gestation period might be the right word like that babies are human babies are born at an earlier stage in the, in the life cycle. That's why we can't walk, for example, whereas a horse can walk the first day it's born is because they just. They're more fully formed and developed in utero.

Vision Battlesword [00:57:28]:
But why should that be? I guess is my point.

Vik Jindal [00:57:31]:
I don't know, it just is.

Vision Battlesword [00:57:32]:
I guess what I'm suggesting is that the human creature through evolution has been calibrated.

Vik Jindal [00:57:42]:
Oh, I see what you're saying. To be more malleable.

Vision Battlesword [00:57:46]:
Right?

Vik Jindal [00:57:46]:
Yes. Like we're actually.

Vision Battlesword [00:57:48]:
Which is a traitor.

Vik Jindal [00:57:49]:
Which is like. Yeah, like is. Is happens to be a certain. That makes. And I understand what you're saying, like for whatever reason humans become. Are born less defined.

Vision Battlesword [00:58:03]:
Right.

Vik Jindal [00:58:04]:
And therefore more open minded. Yeah, more. More just naturally like inherently open minded, I guess.

Vision Battlesword [00:58:10]:
Which, which is a, which is a trade off.

Vik Jindal [00:58:12]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:58:12]:
We.

Vik Jindal [00:58:13]:
We actually form more of our structure post birth, I guess you could say.

Vision Battlesword [00:58:18]:
And continuously throughout life. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what, that's what I'm kind of trying to make. Just kind of trying to showcase.

Vik Jindal [00:58:23]:
That makes sense actually. That makes a ton of sense. Because if. Right. So if you are, let's say a horse or whatever other animals, like a lot of the stuff that you're getting, you're experiencing much more of reality in pre birth. And so it's just much more static in there. You know, you're having a much more limited kind of experience and therefore your structure actually is more limited. Your belief structure has to be more limited.

Vision Battlesword [00:58:54]:
Or at the very least maybe you could say limited or you could also say stable.

Vik Jindal [00:58:59]:
Yes.

Vision Battlesword [00:59:00]:
Or you could say, yeah, limited is.

Vik Jindal [00:59:03]:
Your eyes like this.

Vision Battlesword [00:59:04]:
And also there's a way of saying it less adaptable, but less adaptable. But again, there's trade offs in that, which is a lot of the survival relevant belief system of a horse, for example, doesn't require a thought process in the same way that it does for humans for sure. So like, you know, get up, run away, move away from danger, you know, seek food, like whatever.

Vik Jindal [00:59:32]:
I mean, until they come up with a reason to not want to feel that way. Right. Like not want to do that. And that comes with evolution of their knowledge or whatever. Probably.

Vision Battlesword [00:59:40]:
That's fair. That's fair. And again, I'm trying to get in the mind of a.

Vik Jindal [00:59:43]:
No, no, I'm saying like, I think like for example, there might have been a point when humans were like that.

Vision Battlesword [00:59:49]:
Yeah.

Vik Jindal [00:59:50]:
And then our intelligence allowed like our intelligence created more desire to do more and so then that required adaptation in our belief structures.

Vision Battlesword [01:00:02]:
Okay. Well, one way or another, what seems to have happened is that the human creature has developed or has evolved in the direction of being way heavily rotated in the direction of adaptability, malleability and so forth, which comes at a cost. There are several. But one of those costs is that human beings are born completely helpless. Unlike a horse or a deer or many other creatures, they're born completely helpless and have to be cared for for several years before they can even feed themselves or take care of themselves. And even then it's probably going to be say 12 to 16 years of maturity before they're really like functioning on their own.

Vik Jindal [01:00:56]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:00:57]:
The flip side of that is the human beings are maybe the only creature on this planet that can live on all seven continents in all, all different environments. And I think so that I think that's what that trade off is for. I think human beings, and a lot of what I'm saying now comes from having been listening to Brett Weinstein and Heather Hyang's podcast for the last few years and like really soaking up a lot of kind of evolutionary biology from them, which has been really interesting to me. But I think the point of that is the human creature comes out ready to be programmed by the environment that it finds itself.

Vik Jindal [01:01:37]:
Yeah, yeah. That makes sense to me.

Vision Battlesword [01:01:39]:
So it doesn't come out having default expectations.

Vik Jindal [01:01:44]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:01:44]:
Instead it's like, okay, what am I expecting here? What am I getting here? Is this environment hot?

Vik Jindal [01:01:49]:
Cold?

Vision Battlesword [01:01:49]:
Is it toxic? Is like, what am I, what are we doing?

Vik Jindal [01:01:52]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:01:53]:
And it takes several years actually probably, you know, a decade plus to basically write that operating system, you know, on a case by case basis for each individual. And then collectively that operating system gets downloaded, institutionalized into the culture that carries it from generation to generation.

Vik Jindal [01:02:13]:
The thing that you're making me think about a little bit here that's kind of interesting, but I'm not sure. It could be a thread that doesn't make any sense. But the thing that you're making me wonder about is I wonder if the degree to which you are worried about your survivability limits your degree of malleability. So you were saying 12 to 16 years before you're a fully formed human. There kids when they were like 10 years old back then that like were married and like, you know, or on the farm doing them, whatever, because they were just forced into that position a little bit more to grow up faster. And maybe if you're in that place of survivability, you don't have the time or wherewithal to make your belief structures more malleable. Like it's the equivalent of the horse being in utero for longer. It's like you're just, you have certain things that are going to be happen.

Vik Jindal [01:03:10]:
You're, you're naturally going to be more narrow. And so as our society has become more developed and we are less worried about survivability, it creates the environment for more flexibility in our belief structures because we have the luxury of doing so.

Vision Battlesword [01:03:30]:
Exactly. I was going to use that word, luxury.

Vik Jindal [01:03:32]:
Yeah. But then I'm thinking about the book that you were telling me about, about the cycles. What's that? Name of the book with a very complicated title.

Vision Battlesword [01:03:43]:
Are you talking about the Origin of Consciousness?

Vik Jindal [01:03:45]:
Yes.

Vision Battlesword [01:03:45]:
In the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind?

Vik Jindal [01:03:47]:
Yes. So I haven't read the book, but the way you described it to me is that basically the author looked at the historical record and basically recognized that there were people in higher states of consciousness in prior eras of humanity, let's say.

Vision Battlesword [01:04:03]:
Not exactly, but. But a dramatically different state of consciousness.

Vik Jindal [01:04:07]:
I see.

Vision Battlesword [01:04:07]:
Yeah. Wouldn't necessarily have like described it as higher. Lower.

Vik Jindal [01:04:12]:
Yeah. Okay.

Vision Battlesword [01:04:14]:
Different. Very different.

Vik Jindal [01:04:15]:
Okay, fair enough. I was thinking that let's say that they were able to interact with these broader things that we, we've lost Touch with. And I wonder if that.

Vision Battlesword [01:04:27]:
Yeah.

Vik Jindal [01:04:27]:
Is in contrast though to the survivability talking about or not. Because were they in survival mode then maybe we have this thought belief structure that maybe the further back you go, the more that people struggle for survivability. Maybe that's just not true.

Vision Battlesword [01:04:43]:
Yeah. I think that's a belief system.

Vik Jindal [01:04:45]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:04:46]:
Right. Yeah. My, my thought on that is life conditions change.

Vik Jindal [01:04:51]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:04:52]:
So survival strategies update.

Vik Jindal [01:04:55]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:04:55]:
To match life conditions.

Vik Jindal [01:04:57]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:04:58]:
I also agree with you that I think that having the freedom to pursue self directed malleability of one's belief system is a luxury.

Vik Jindal [01:05:08]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:05:09]:
Experience.

Vik Jindal [01:05:09]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:05:10]:
As we understand it.

Vik Jindal [01:05:11]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:05:11]:
From what we think our history and our evolution looks like. And maybe that's. Maybe there's a lot that we don't know.

Vik Jindal [01:05:19]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:05:19]:
From what things were like a lot long ago in the past, maybe people had a, you know, much different experience and had a lot more luxury than we have right now.

Vik Jindal [01:05:27]:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting. Like, you know, I was thinking about like, you know, obviously I've thought about magic and different ways of thinking about these ideas. I can do that because I'm not worried about feeding my family. Do you know what I'm saying? And so if you were in a period of time where that was your worry, then. Yeah. You're just naturally going to be less malleable because you don't have enough time to even approach it like you have.

Vik Jindal [01:05:53]:
You're living in your structure. And malleability of structure just, it just takes time, I think to some degree or it takes some contemplation or some, some time to be aware of it, be with this idea and then explore it. Right.

Vision Battlesword [01:06:07]:
Yeah. And I would say, I think there's certain life conditions or circumstances that are either supportive or not supportive of the luxury of malleability. And I think that actually can exist on two different extremes.

Vik Jindal [01:06:22]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:06:22]:
On the one hand, I think we all know and probably can even, you know, identify times when this has been true for us, that when survival seems threatened, a lot of times the belief system locks down.

Vik Jindal [01:06:35]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:06:36]:
Clamps down. Right. Like, okay, now's not really the time for exploration. Now's the time for, you know, food goes in here and I get money from there and whatever those belief, those, those core beliefs are that we think that serve us. That we think serve us.

Vik Jindal [01:06:53]:
Yeah, yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:06:53]:
But on the other hand, also I think there can be life circumstances that we would define as a crisis situation or a breakdown or a breakthrough or different things that are equally like, let's Say threatening and might feel unstable, but that force us into malleability, that force us to disregard some of our rigid belief systems for the sake of survival. Because these are not working.

Vik Jindal [01:07:22]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:07:23]:
Here. And it's like, hey, update operating system or you know, computer shut down imminent.

Vik Jindal [01:07:29]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:07:29]:
Kind of thing.

Vik Jindal [01:07:30]:
Totally.

Vision Battlesword [01:07:30]:
But the point I was trying to make before when, you know, just kind of going through the quick analogy with comparing humans to other animals was just sort of identifying what beliefs are and what they're for. And if we say that like, okay, so one thing that beliefs are is they're kind of the rules of reality as we understand them that tell us how to interact with the world.

Vik Jindal [01:07:56]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:07:56]:
And we come with, for whatever reason, we come with a very open ended software development kit that can create all different kinds of operating systems.

Vik Jindal [01:08:07]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:08:08]:
And that then gives us this kind of capability where we now have this luxury and this capability to even self reflect and inquire and then intentionally create or recreate our belief system and therefore our experience of reality. And so I, I just, I guess I just think that's interesting to know what it is that we're doing. Like what is this house that we're living in and what do these walls represent? And then from that place of like maybe a little bit broader context of knowing what it is that we're doing when we say we want to dissolve a limiting belief or when we say we want to create an empowering belief or something along those lines, then we can make more intelligent choices. I guess about that. And then there's this another metaphor I want to drop in, which is, have you heard about the idea or the theory of the technological singularity that you.

Vik Jindal [01:09:04]:
Can download your mind into a computer?

Vision Battlesword [01:09:07]:
That idea sort of, that's kind of where it seems like the idea tends to always lead to that conclusion.

Vik Jindal [01:09:15]:
Yeah, I don't actually know, but the basic. Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:09:17]:
As I understand it, the basic concept of the quote unquote singularity is the point at which machine intelligence or artificial, so called artificial intelligence becomes iterative to the point that it begins to be able to recreate itself without human operators.

Vik Jindal [01:09:38]:
Okay.

Vision Battlesword [01:09:39]:
And that because machine, you know, computer electrical technology can process information so many orders of magnitude faster than organic computation.

Vik Jindal [01:09:53]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:09:53]:
That essentially at the point where the computer starts to be able to rewrite its own code.

Vik Jindal [01:09:58]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:09:58]:
It iterates in a runaway feed loop and totally within, I mean. Right. Yeah. Within a matter of minutes, hours, days, whatever it is.

Vik Jindal [01:10:06]:
Yeah. That's like where you're. Where we're going to. Right. We're going right now to these, from LLMs to AGI, artificial general intelligence to artificial superintelligence. Right. And that in theory should happen incredibly quickly based on exactly what you're talking about.

Vision Battlesword [01:10:22]:
Yeah. And that's why they call it a singularity, I think, is because it's kind of like the analogy to the collapsing of a black hole.

Vik Jindal [01:10:29]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:10:30]:
Where you know, okay, the matter falls in and falls in and falls into a certain point, but when it, once it reaches a critical mass, then it just collapses and it's, it's gone.

Vik Jindal [01:10:39]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:10:39]:
You know, it becomes a, a point.

Vik Jindal [01:10:41]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:10:41]:
Singularity. In this case it's more like.

Vik Jindal [01:10:45]:
What'S the black hole element is like. Oh, it just, it becomes like self fulfilling, self replicating so quickly that it's.

Vision Battlesword [01:10:52]:
Like, like nothing can stop it.

Vik Jindal [01:10:53]:
Like that.

Vision Battlesword [01:10:54]:
Like that's what, that's the, that's how I understand the analogy to a black hole is it's just there's a point in time where the process could conceivably be reversed, but once it passes a certain threshold, it just, it just poof. And you've got a black hole and there's. There's no process in the universe that can reverse that from that point forward. I think the same idea is when the artificial general intelligence reaches a certain threshold of being able to rewrite its own programming code with a sufficient level of self awareness or you may call it intelligence or something like that, that it becomes a runaway process that can no longer be stopped. And you have something new, what you might call artificial superintelligence, which I don't think any of us can really even know what that means or what that even is. But now you've got it. And that's the singularity. That's the moment of singularity.

Vision Battlesword [01:11:48]:
So I think that's what we're actually doing with our own minds. I think we've been doing it for a while. This is the process that I call intentional evolution.

Vik Jindal [01:11:59]:
Okay.

Vision Battlesword [01:12:00]:
Which, which is that we've crossed some kind of a threshold already at some point. Or maybe we're on that threshold now, maybe we're crossing it. But the point is at which we become self aware of our own belief system and realize that, oh, we are made of software.

Vik Jindal [01:12:20]:
Literally. Right.

Vision Battlesword [01:12:21]:
And we developed the psychological spiritual technology to rewrite our own code.

Vik Jindal [01:12:30]:
Interesting.

Vision Battlesword [01:12:31]:
Which then becomes an iterative process of oh, we're. Now it's not to say that we're completely unhooked from this idea of biological evolution, but we're actually iterating something that's orders of magnitude faster than that.

Vik Jindal [01:12:46]:
I mean, dude, take that into its limit. I mean, maybe the nature of biological evolution actually become untethered from it. And that, that may actually be kind of the point. You know, we, we, you know, like, we always have this question of, like, aliens, like, why don't we see any? Maybe because they've all evolved to this point where they just realize that this is all just a construct.

Vision Battlesword [01:13:08]:
Right. Talk about a limiting belief.

Vik Jindal [01:13:10]:
Yeah, totally.

Vision Battlesword [01:13:10]:
This whole physical, you know, because I.

Vik Jindal [01:13:12]:
Think if you think about it, right. Like, I mean, we were just, we were talking about like magic before we got, you know, on this, on this recording. If you think about like, let's say somebody making an object float. Now, I've never personally seen it, but in theory, gravity, they're manipulating the bounds of what we conceive of as gravity. And that's like what you would think of as in this 3D reality that maybe that's just a construct of our mind that we eventually evolve past. That's just like this is like a training ground for that eventual realization. But I love the idea of us being in a. In our own singularity.

Vik Jindal [01:13:51]:
That is such a fascinating idea. I love it. What'd you call that?

Vision Battlesword [01:13:54]:
I call it intentional evolution.

Vik Jindal [01:13:55]:
Intentional evolution. I love that. Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:13:57]:
That's because it essentially means that we've become aware of the system.

Vik Jindal [01:14:02]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:14:03]:
And now we're directing it.

Vik Jindal [01:14:04]:
I, I believe that is what you just described is the. I believe the track that we are on. Like we are about to evolve very rapidly. And actually we're talking about artificial intelligence and all this kind of stuff. And actually that may actually not be a worry in the long run. Once we can intentionally get to this place where we construct any structure that we want.

Vision Battlesword [01:14:26]:
Suppose it's happening in parallel.

Vik Jindal [01:14:27]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:14:28]:
Suppose there's a machine intelligence which also achieves intentional evolution. We call that the singularity. But suppose we also are doing the same thing.

Vik Jindal [01:14:39]:
Maybe we couldn't even conceive of it until we were in the place to. That we were doing it ourselves. Who knows?

Vision Battlesword [01:14:44]:
That makes.

Vik Jindal [01:14:45]:
They're all like, you know, in some sense constructs. Right. And so until we understand that it can be done, maybe we. With the fact that it can be done.

Vision Battlesword [01:14:52]:
Right. So what do you believe about magic? That you were. This whole conversation started kind of from that point. You were saying that something about magic isn't supernatural.

Vik Jindal [01:15:06]:
It's just, it's natural.

Vision Battlesword [01:15:08]:
It's just that there's more to reality than what our belief systems will allow us to experience. But when we either intentionally begin to expand our belief system or whether we start to experience a softening or a breakdown because life circumstances are changing, we start to have to question what we believe or whatever, then we start to be able to experience more that seems to be outside of the rule sets that we were taught or at least believed at one time. Doesn't really mean that anything's breaking any rules of reality. It just means this is more of reality that's available to us now.

Vik Jindal [01:15:50]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:15:51]:
Is that what you're saying?

Vik Jindal [01:15:51]:
I mean, the way you described intentional evolution is sort of how I think about magic in the sense that these belief structures that we have constructed, we bring attention to that, and then we intentionally make that malleable. And then the degree to which we can make that malleable is much more vast than we thought. And in fact, reality is much more formless. And then we can bring it into form through our conscious, intentional creation. And I think we are on the cusp of. And we call it magic because some people understand it and some people don't yet, but we'll eventually get to the place where this is just how reality works. Like our understanding of how reality works and probably keep going from there. You know, it's just the malleability, intentional malleability.

Vik Jindal [01:16:43]:
And then like, okay, at first it's like, I can build this business versus not building this business. Okay. That's like the starter pack. If you really think about this, like, take this again to its limit, you. Maybe gravity is malleable, maybe form is malleable. Who knows if what we're talking about is really true, in theory, that could be the limit is like that. It's just there is no limit. And that could, from our vantage point now, be conceived of as magical, when in actuality, that is just how to engage with reality.

Vik Jindal [01:17:15]:
Once you're really skilled at it, then you really understand how reality works.

Vision Battlesword [01:17:19]:
What kind of things are you talking about? Are you talking about, like, kind of physical manipulation? Totally of the environment through mentalism?

Vik Jindal [01:17:26]:
Yeah. I mean, you know, you know about yogis. Like, yogis would, like, appear, they would float. You know, there's all kinds of stories about that. You know, there's a lot of things that in the world that thousands of years ago that we still have no explanation for, that we barely do now. How did they do that? You know, how do they do that stuff? Maybe they tapped into this thing that we since lost.

Vision Battlesword [01:17:47]:
Have you been experiencing some of those things in your own life?

Vik Jindal [01:17:50]:
Not like that, but we'll see. I've definitely experienced things that I'm sure other people have experienced in spiritual circles and things like this where their minds become more open, like synchronicities and other experiences or kind of intuition that's really heightened. That's spot on. I've experienced things that feel magical, but I think it's our. I'll speak for myself. The form of the belief structure around our 3D reality is incredibly rigid. We're born, we have pain, we have all these different physical experiences. The bounds of that are incredibly rigid, I think, for most of us.

Vik Jindal [01:18:38]:
I think that there are some people that have lived that maybe that wasn't the case quite as much for them. But like, I think for the vast majority of us, that is more rigid. And so to get through that takes work, I think, like softening those belief structures over time. And maybe there's people who do this very quickly. But I think it takes a lot of intentional work and time and practice to soften the bounds of reality as we experience it in this sort of like what we conceive as a 3D reality. Where you're sitting on that chair, I'm sitting on this chair, we're feeling gravity, we're in this place. And I think, like, can we transcend that? I don't know. It's right now, it's.

Vik Jindal [01:19:21]:
I believe that we can, but obviously my belief is not strong enough yet because otherwise I would do it if I was to really diagnose my belief. I believe that I'll eventually get there in some form or fashion or understand. And I believe that I'm on the road to understanding at least this better. And the degree to which that happens isn't instant, but it's like. And that's maybe just a construct of my mind, because that's the idea that it could become instant is something that, like my current belief structure won't allow me to believe. That's kind of how I think about it.

Vision Battlesword [01:19:55]:
What part of your belief system or your belief structure right now would you say is one of the most rigid parts that you might even imagine could be limiting your potential of reality?

Vik Jindal [01:20:09]:
Just say the question again.

Vision Battlesword [01:20:11]:
What's a wall in your house that you notice you can't see around? If there's things that you think are available to be experienced, but you're not experiencing them like magic, What's a rigid wall in your belief structure that you think might be holding you back?

Vik Jindal [01:20:27]:
That's an interesting question. I think, like, I'm still, like, I dabble in starter pack mode. Do you know what I mean like in the, like, I'm still trying to make malleable this 3D reality. Meaning, like accomplish some things like relationship wise or professionally or physically or whatever. Right. And that's like starter pack mode to me.

Vision Battlesword [01:20:55]:
Yeah.

Vik Jindal [01:20:55]:
But I am also dabbling with these other things. It kind of feels like you have to go through starter pack mode almost because it's like, it's still to manipulate, like your manipulate to like create a reality that's still based in this 3D reality. Like so like you're, you're still in the house, but I'm just taking down a wall in my house as opposed to being in a house. And then suddenly the house disappears and you create like a new house that you live in. Like that's a whole different thing. Yeah, right. I'm not there yet. I'm still in the starter pack mode of like I've, I am in this body.

Vik Jindal [01:21:36]:
I live in Austin. I do this work. I do, you know, I work in finance and I am doing this every day. And like, and can I, knowing what I know now about belief structures, which I am fully immersed in that thought process, can I just create the reality within those confines first? And then once I see that changing it like it will, then by definition, if I see that happening, it actually makes the bounds of the house more flexible because I'm starting to, I'm starting to believe more that the whole structure is flexible. So I think it's like, it's like steps. You have to like take it the one step at a time. Does that make sense? Because you're going through layers of your belief.

Vision Battlesword [01:22:27]:
Yeah, I got you, you know, and you build up. It's like a muscle.

Vik Jindal [01:22:31]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:22:32]:
You know, you, you and you build up confidence and build up. You, you receive validation that like, oh, this can change. This did change. I now believe this will change. Yes, it's a very meta. It's very meta. Totally changing your system, huh?

Vik Jindal [01:22:47]:
Yeah, it's like iterative, just like you were talking about.

Vision Battlesword [01:22:49]:
Yeah. What's a belief that has changed for you at some point in your life that had a dramatic impact on your experience of reality?

Vik Jindal [01:22:58]:
I mean, I've been on like a, a pretty intense, like I at least had gone through a pretty intense healing journey in my life where I think I was restricted in my belief structures around myself. And then going through that healing structure, I then experienced my life in a completely different way. It feels very like 3D locked. I know, and feels like kind of conventional, but to me it was very profound. And then I Experienced my capacity to even be with the idea that we're talking about is a result of me going through this belief transition in myself. Does that make sense?

Vision Battlesword [01:23:40]:
What was the belief transition? What was the old belief and what's the new belief?

Vik Jindal [01:23:43]:
I mean, I think it's just like your typical stuff about like, maybe not feeling capable enough or good enough or not trusting yourself or whatever, and then transitioning to a place where I love who I am and I trust myself and I feel capable, et cetera. And then like my world realizing that my world was changing simply as a result of the shifting in my own belief structures and then allowing me to tap into different that. I mean, that also through medicine, journeys and just also personal reflection allowed me to tap into my own intuition and being more aware of these other aspects of myself that then allowed me to sort of see again, like these rigid belief structures where it'll start to become deconstructed, which opened me up to other aspects of this 3D reality. But it's amazing what comes down in these belief structures. Do you think that they're rigidly adhered to, like, I not good enough or whatever? But actually in there is also stuff that's like metaphysical in nature that's also coming down like that I wasn't really realizing, because once you start, let's say, trusting yourself, loving the way your mind works, whatever, then suddenly the things that you're thinking about have a lot more resonance because you're not doubting yourself quite as much. And then so you're like, this is my experience of it. And so then suddenly the malleability, the things that I'm experiencing, I'm no longer doubting I'm experiencing this thing. And then that then leads to forming ideas of, of the nature that we're talking about.

Vik Jindal [01:25:19]:
And so like, it kind of is like it just keeps going. It's like the walls become fuzzy and they become fuzzy in all of these ways that. Or when walls come down, like there's parts of the structure that you didn't even know were there that are incidentally benefiting. That like, you're just like. It's like sort of mind opening. And it's just like malleability begets more malleability is how I think about it, actually. It's just like the nature of it is like it becomes more flexible, like your, your system. The more you go down the path, the more more malleable the system becomes.

Vision Battlesword [01:25:56]:
But there's something about malleability plus control or plus intention where it's like it's not just. It's not chaotically malleable, but it's, like, firm but flexible, adaptable to different circumstances or situations. Meaning it's like, one could imagine.

Vik Jindal [01:26:17]:
I don't think it's necessarily. I think it can be chaotically malleable.

Vision Battlesword [01:26:21]:
Yeah, yeah. No, it can be. You know, I. I think that's what we're experiencing now.

Vik Jindal [01:26:24]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:26:25]:
Is that chaotic malleability?

Vik Jindal [01:26:27]:
Exactly.

Vision Battlesword [01:26:27]:
That's exactly where it's like, oh, wait, my belief system. My belief structure is dissolving, is breaking down. I'm losing walls here.

Vik Jindal [01:26:35]:
And, yeah, what the fuck is going on with reality?

Vision Battlesword [01:26:37]:
What's going on? Cartesian crisis, existential crisis, whatever. But then I imagine.

Vik Jindal [01:26:42]:
And then it's going in crazy, sort of going in what we perceive as, like, these wild directions because it's not intentional. It's sort of like then people are being triggered in certain ways and they're creating new belief structures that feel, like, chaotic, I guess.

Vision Battlesword [01:26:56]:
Right. So when you say malleability begets more malleability, there's a sense. There's one sense in which that could be taken where it feels like a hurricane comes through my belief system and starts blowing down the walls or moving them around, and it just keeps spinning faster and faster and faster and faster, and there's nothing that's stable or certain. But there's another sense of malleability begets malleability, which is what I really think you were trying to communicate, or at least what resonates for me as what I call intentional evolution, which is I start trying to shift or move a wall or I notice that it's become more flexible or permeable, and that then allows me to start to develop an intentional malleability with conscious manipulation, meaning, oh, well, what if I put this here.

Vik Jindal [01:27:46]:
Oh, well, what if I put that there?

Vision Battlesword [01:27:48]:
And then the. The. The control becomes more easeful and fluid.

Vik Jindal [01:27:53]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:27:54]:
But it doesn't mean that the structure becomes softer and softer and softer until it goes away altogether. It's more. It's more. It becomes more of an ongoing process of transformation with agency.

Vik Jindal [01:28:07]:
Yeah, totally. I. It's exactly right.

Vision Battlesword [01:28:11]:
That's what I think is happening. And I wonder what that's like when enough of us reach that point. So we imagine that on an individual level.

Vik Jindal [01:28:20]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:28:20]:
And then there's the collective interactions among those beliefs.

Vik Jindal [01:28:24]:
Well, that's what we were talking about. Like, it's funny, you triggered that thought when you were talking about, like, when we started talking about, like, if we had a wall between my kitchen and My living room. And we're like, let's take down that wall, because that makes sense. And then we're like, but I don't want to take down the wall between my apartment in the hallway or between my living room and my bathroom or my living room and my bedroom. But I think that that's like based in some sense on a narrowly defined construct that we've created based on prior belief structures.

Vision Battlesword [01:28:59]:
That's where the cultural belief system and our individual belief system overlap.

Vik Jindal [01:29:06]:
Exactly like they formed how we are. Right? But like, dude, think about this. Like, like thousands of years ago there were people where the entire society was dedicated to building one pyramid or whatever, you know, like, we can't even conceive of that right now. But like, I think if we start to like intentionally create this thing, like I said, it's going to be a rough entry. But the, just like the singularity you were talking about, the human singularity, is going to go vertical in terms of us just like going into this creation mode. And so then like the bounds of our reality are so malleable at that point. What would you do? Because like, the conventional stuff that we stick to seems pretty pedestrian at that point. Like, do we care about money, do we care about this, do we care about that? Maybe not.

Vik Jindal [01:29:57]:
Because like all of it's available to us because it's based on what we create. So then all the stuff that we conventionally worry about goes out the window because we have all the abundance we want, we have all the resources we want, we have all the spiritual kind of systems we want. So then what would you create? I think it's like basically the most magnificent forms of art you could possibly imagine just for the sake of doing it. Because that's what you would engage with. Because there's nothing. I think it would be like, what is the coolest thing you could possibly imagine? And create that and just making sure other people can experience that, it feels.

Vision Battlesword [01:30:33]:
Like, you know, going down that line of thinking really, it really opens something up. Which is when you say, what's the coolest thing you can imagine? We can only even imagine cool. What? That, what that, what would that, what kind of thing would that even be? We can only imagine that from within our current, Current belief system.

Vik Jindal [01:30:52]:
Exactly. This is my.

Vision Battlesword [01:30:54]:
So like, when we reach that point, whatever we think is cool is going to be completely different.

Vik Jindal [01:30:58]:
This is why I'm saying, this is what I was saying before about how even in the construct of survivability, etc, the construct of how we're even Thinking about reality right now may evolve.

Vision Battlesword [01:31:10]:
Well, and that's exactly the thesis of Julian Jane's Origin of Consciousness book. That's exactly the thesis.

Vik Jindal [01:31:17]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:31:17]:
The thesis is, you know, 12,000 years ago, we, the human species, was experiencing a completely different kind of reality.

Vik Jindal [01:31:28]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:31:28]:
Than what we experience now.

Vik Jindal [01:31:30]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:31:30]:
Was they were like aliens would be to us.

Vik Jindal [01:31:34]:
Right, right.

Vision Battlesword [01:31:36]:
And that can happen again. That is actually exactly what I think is happening.

Vik Jindal [01:31:41]:
That's what I think is happening as well.

Vision Battlesword [01:31:42]:
I. I think that however long 100, a thousand years from now, whatever it may look like, humanity as a. As a species will ex. Will have a different kind of consciousness in a different. Like a different consciousness in kind.

Vik Jindal [01:31:57]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:31:57]:
From what we're experiencing now. And so whatever those people think is cool would be very interesting.

Vik Jindal [01:32:03]:
Yeah, totally.

Vision Battlesword [01:32:04]:
See, because whatever we think is cool now is something like a pyramid, but just made out of glass and chrome and the shiny LEDs on it or something, which is, I mean, still pretty.

Vik Jindal [01:32:13]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:32:14]:
What was the word you used? Pedestrian.

Vik Jindal [01:32:15]:
Yeah, exactly. Like we. We really can't conceive of it yet. I feel like. No, exactly. And like this is actually, like, why I, like, I don't worry about the future really. You know, I think a lot of people are worried about the future. I don't worry about the future for exactly this reason, actually.

Vik Jindal [01:32:32]:
In fact, I've trained my mind not to worry. Like, that doesn't mean that, like, I'm not on top of the things that need, like, my handling of things, but like, to hold a worry is to imagine and create a story around a future event that you currently don't know. So you're actually creating a belief structure around something that's like. And then you're holding onto that worry. And so one, I don't. I don't do that anymore because I'm. I'm vanquishing myself of these, like, belief structures that don't serve me intentionally. So like just.

Vik Jindal [01:33:08]:
Just holding things that I'm assuming negative outcomes or stories that are creating around that. Again, that. That's not meaning I'm not taking care of the things that I need to take care of to make sure that my family's safe or whatever. But like, to hold on to this thing is actually like you are creating. By holding on to worry, you are creating a belief structure where that outcome is like, embedded in your. Your reality construct and the way you'll feel about reality and what will happen. And so when I've done that, like, suddenly these, like, beautiful awarenesses about reality are coming about. Once I started releasing these aspects like suddenly, like the things that.

Vik Jindal [01:33:49]:
Yeah, like there's things that like, pop up. But I actually like, I feel really optimistic about the future.

Vision Battlesword [01:33:57]:
That feels like a perfect place to bring it to a close. Yeah, I also feel optimistic about the future.

Vik Jindal [01:34:02]:
Yeah. Awesome.

Vision Battlesword [01:34:04]:
I feel optimistic about our ability to self reflect on our own belief systems in ever more interesting and intelligent and creative ways.

Vik Jindal [01:34:15]:
I agree with that as well.

Vision Battlesword [01:34:16]:
Thank you for this conversation, Vic. This was super fun.

Vik Jindal [01:34:18]:
Yeah, it was awesome. Thanks, Vishal.