Vision Battlesword [00:00:00]:
What are we talking about today, Vik?

Vik Jindal [00:00:02]:
Let's talk about integrity. Vision.

Vision Battlesword [00:00:04]:
Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, I can ask you my typical starting question, of course, which is, what is integrity? Or. Sure. Do you want to. Do you want to just kind of like give me. Give me a quick frame?

Vik Jindal [00:00:18]:
Can I hear your definition of integrity?

Vision Battlesword [00:00:20]:
Sure, yeah. Well, it's interesting that you ask because integrity is one of the seven core values of my men's group.

Vik Jindal [00:00:31]:
Okay.

Vision Battlesword [00:00:32]:
And I did. So I did an actual sort of like research project to really get clear on what these values are, what they really mean to me and what they mean to the group. And we did, like group conversations on. We did. We did a. We took a meeting of our group and took a section of the meeting, like an hour to actually have a group discussion to flesh out, like, what did these values truly mean to us as we were creating that container. So the ideas that were generated from that that really resonated for me is, number one, I looked up the definition of the word integrity in my Oxford English dictionary, and I was surprised but intrigued to discover that it really has everything to do with wholeness and completeness. I think that the mainstream idea of integrity has a lot to do with trust or follow through, reliability, honesty.

Vision Battlesword [00:01:36]:
Like all of those concepts are.

Vik Jindal [00:01:37]:
Yeah. Outward way of being to some degree. Right. Like how you interact with the world.

Vision Battlesword [00:01:43]:
Right. But is it sort of like in a person with integrity represents themselves in the outer world in alignment with how they actually are inside? Is. It's like how you are inside is the same as how you are outside.

Vik Jindal [00:01:58]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:01:59]:
Is kind of what we say about a person with integrity. Yeah, maybe in a way. But. But there's also. It's also gotten wrapped up with, I think, certain societal constructs.

Vik Jindal [00:02:09]:
Right.

Vision Battlesword [00:02:09]:
Societal expectations.

Vik Jindal [00:02:11]:
Yeah. Of like ethical or moral behavior.

Vision Battlesword [00:02:13]:
Correct.

Vik Jindal [00:02:13]:
Stuff like that.

Vision Battlesword [00:02:14]:
Yeah, exactly. Ethical, moral behavior. But. But that's. That's cultural.

Vik Jindal [00:02:18]:
Right.

Vision Battlesword [00:02:19]:
You know, it's not necessarily so. So I get. But I guess that is where integrity kind of gets sharpened up a little bit. Is. Are we talking about personal integrity or are we talking about cultural integrity?

Vik Jindal [00:02:33]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:02:33]:
Does that make sense? So. So it's like, I think a person can. Well, at least this is one of the ideas that got fleshed out in those conversations that I had before. It seems that a person can have integrity with their own moral compass. They could. You could consider someone an integrous person. It's like, yeah, that person has a lot of integrity. They really do what they believe in.

Vik Jindal [00:02:56]:
Right. But it may not comport with the external.

Vision Battlesword [00:02:58]:
Right.

Vik Jindal [00:02:59]:
Cultural integrity or culture.

Vision Battlesword [00:03:01]:
But then there's another definition of integrity that has more to do with what is expected of you. Are you. Are you operating? Are you acting in alignment with what is expected of you?

Vik Jindal [00:03:11]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:03:12]:
So I think that's where the kind of internal versus the external conversation gets really interesting. But, but. But coming back to the original definition, which has to do with being whole or complete, I think that's really interesting. I think that's a definition that's almost kind of fallen away.

Vik Jindal [00:03:29]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:03:29]:
Or been lost.

Vik Jindal [00:03:30]:
Yeah. I mean, Martha Beck talks about this idea like wholeness or, you know, she pointed out that, I guess integrity comes from the word integer, and integer means whole. You know. But I was. As I thought about this, I was thinking that, like, Roe is whole, and who we are on the inside is always reflected in some degree in how we behave in the world. You know, it may not be healthy in some sense. It might be full of all these shadows and everything, but who we are on the inside is actually coming out on the outside. And so the question is, it feels like to me that the conversation is more about unhealthy integrity versus healthy integrity.

Vik Jindal [00:04:12]:
Integrity in general is like a healthy integrity is one. I think of it as whole, like you're talking about, but I think of somebody who has healthy integrity as one who does the examination within themselves to understand themselves, see shadows, see programs that they're running, understanding, you know, why they act the way they act. And then somebody with unhealthy integrity is sort of on autopilot around a lot of those things that are driving them, and they're not actually seeing a lot of the stuff that is making them create what they're creating in the outside world. So that's kind of how I think about integrity. And so, for example, let's say, you know, sort of this unhealthy integrity, where you have this sort of deep sense of lack within yourself, you know, feeling like you're not good enough, intrinsically not good enough, or whatever. As an example, you know, if you're. If you have a sense of lack within, if you don't have a sense of like, of finding that, understanding that where that sense of lack is coming in from within you, the natural tendency is to look outside of yourself, to find that thing that you lack within. And so a lot of people, I think, look for that in, you know, money, power, fame, or you can look at it to numb that feeling with, like, sex, drugs, whatever, you know, other ways that we take advantage of people, et cetera.

Vik Jindal [00:05:36]:
And if you have this sense of lack within, and you're desperate enough to solve that inner lack within. And you see something like money, power, fame that could solve that interlock within. You might be willing to do anything to get it. And so you might build casinos where people play a game they can't win with money they can't afford to lose. You might create businesses that take advantage of people or harm the environment, or say or do things that harm other people, but give you sort of money, power, fame in order to get that thing that you think will fill that interlock within. But the irony is that that external thing will never fill the interlock within. So now you're the same person with the same sense of inner lack, but now you have money, power and fame. And so then you actually are more influential in the world and have more influence in the world as you go out into the world with that same sense of lack.

Vision Battlesword [00:06:40]:
So it's almost like you're amplifying your shadow.

Vik Jindal [00:06:44]:
Exactly.

Vision Battlesword [00:06:45]:
You're just finding more sources of energy to turn up the volume.

Vik Jindal [00:06:49]:
Totally. Your own internal totally. In fact, you might actually become even darker because you just got disappointed by the fact that you've been in this constant track of disappointment where you think the thing that you think will fill the interlock within doesn't. And it just keeps going and going and going as you're accumulating this more external money, power, fame. And it still doesn't satiate that thing inside of you. And so you're more upset and more powerful. And so it's actually like, I think it has this aspect of, like, turning us into like, you know, outward monsters. And I think a lot of times, like, a lot of people have these shadows, but they don't have the opportunity to exercise this shadow because they don't have money, power, fame, they don't have influence in the world.

Vik Jindal [00:07:35]:
But as they gain that influence, then they have that shadow becomes a little bit less, let's say, bridled within them, because now they have that ability to like, give that shadow what it wants.

Vision Battlesword [00:07:51]:
And this was exactly the point in the conversation where I wanted to ask the question, like, okay, what exactly do we mean by integrity? And what is any of that stuff that you just talked about actually really have to do with integrity? Because where you seem to be leading with this is going. You. You seem to be going down the track of wanting to get to the point of asking and answering the question of, like, how can we create businesses, political systems, societies, etc. That have true integrity? But again, like, we're using that word in a kind of an intuitive way where we've got these good feelings or these good impressions of what that means. But what does it really mean?

Vik Jindal [00:08:37]:
Yeah, I mean, I guess that's my point, is that, like, you're always in integrity. You always are who you are. It's just the question is, do you know who you are? Do you know what's driving you? And to me, that's actually the issue is like, the thing that we are sort of missing the point is like, we sort of this idea that you can be in integrity or you can't, you're out of integrity. And I think we are all always in integrity. This is a different framework. You always have integrity. The question is, are you trying to understand how you're operating, why you're operating that way? Are you doing that searching? And so that it creates a healthier understanding of yourself? And so, like, integrity, it's a little bit of an amorphous word to some degree under this definition, because it's sort of like, if you're always in integrity, what does that actually. What does it actually mean?

Vision Battlesword [00:09:35]:
It's like, does the concept lose value?

Vik Jindal [00:09:39]:
Yeah, I think so. I think it potentially does lose value in some sense because it's really a spectrum of a way of being. So the question is it kind of almost. You can almost take out the word integrity and says, are you healthy or are you unhealthy?

Vision Battlesword [00:09:54]:
That's what it more sounds like they're saying, actually. Yeah. But another thing that was really interesting about all these values conversations that I had last year with the men's group and with others is there's some overlap and there's several related concepts that we many times use interchangeably. They're not identical, but they're easy to conflate. And in particular, these are integrity, authenticity, and accountability. Like all three of these things, we tend to. We tend to kind of mash these up a lot of times into a concept of whether we like somebody or not, you know, or like whether we think someone's a good person who's moral or ethical, or let's say, responsible, reliable and so forth.

Vik Jindal [00:10:47]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:10:47]:
But they're not exactly the same. And so when. When we're talking about, okay, a person is the same on the inside as. Or the. The reflection of how they are on the inside is more or less how they present on the outside. You could also call that authenticity instead of integrity. Right. And then there's also a piece of like, did you do what you were going to say you were going to do.

Vision Battlesword [00:11:13]:
Did you follow through? Are you reliable? A lot of times we say that that's a person who has integrity. But is that also accountability?

Vik Jindal [00:11:20]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:11:21]:
Or is that actually accountability?

Vik Jindal [00:11:22]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:11:23]:
And what is integrity?

Vik Jindal [00:11:24]:
Wow. That comes into that. I mean, it's very. We're kind of going into this really interesting parsing the words. And by the way, I want to make it clear that I don't purport to be any expert on integrity. It's the exploration I've been doing.

Vision Battlesword [00:11:37]:
Vic, I brought you here as the Integra subject matter expert.

Vik Jindal [00:11:42]:
So I just want to point that out that I'm. I'm in exploration around these ideas. But so I'm just going to fumble around for a little bit here. If you don't, that's all we do.

Vision Battlesword [00:11:49]:
Right.

Vik Jindal [00:11:50]:
So, yeah, perfect. So I guess, like, how I think about it is, okay, somebody with unhealthy integrity, let's say they have a lot of shadows that then cause them to, you know, manipulate other people or hurt other people, et cetera. I'm trying to think of like a good example, I guess I'm going to this book Existential Kink, which we've talked about a little bit. So Existential Kink, I forget the author's name is about this idea that we have these like, unconscious parts of ourselves that are unseen, call them shadows. And they actually are driving a lot of our behavior without us realizing it. And so, you know, she is the example and she sort of has this bigger overarching theme is having is evidence of wanting. And so, like, whatever you have in life is sort of a manifestation concept, I guess you could say. But like, whatever you have in life is actually a reflection of what you.

Vik Jindal [00:12:48]:
You deeply want. And so people. It triggered. It's a triggering kind of concept to some degree because if you're like in a series of bad relationships or you're impoverished or whatever, it's kind of like having this evidence of wanting, meaning that you imply that it implies that you want that thing. Right. That's a hard concept to be with, but it's an interesting concept at the very least. And her point is that you have like these shadows that live within you. So, like, if you have a series of bad relationships, their shadow might be that you don't ultimately think you're good enough for a good relationship, and so you create a series of bad relationships.

Vik Jindal [00:13:23]:
Now, her point in the book is that you can look at that shadow and then bring it to your conscious mind basically by finding that thing within yourself. And then sort of removing the power. The idea is that the thing that you're not acknowledging that's within you is actually the thing that's sort of driving your behavior in your life more. So both things are true, that you want relationships, the. In this sort of higher self, but then there's a shadow part of you that thinks you don't deserve it and blah, blah, blah. But the fact is, you can't look at that thing that's within you. And so to me, that would be sort of like this unhealthy integrity in that sense, that there is a part of you that is driving your behavior that you are not seeing. Right.

Vik Jindal [00:14:10]:
Whereas a healthy integrity is you're kind of turning a light at all on all the parts of you and constantly looking at the parts of you that are in shadow, potentially examining your behaviors so you can bring the unconscious to conscious. And so as. As much as possible. Right. And that's like, that's a lifelong endeavor. Nobody's got the light on everywhere. Maybe somebody does, but most people don't. I don't.

Vik Jindal [00:14:34]:
You know, but the point is that you're constantly looking for that thing. And so the question is, can somebody with unhealthy integrity also have authenticity?

Vision Battlesword [00:14:49]:
Is authenticity a prerequisite for integrity? Like, do you have to. Or I guess authenticity is not necessarily synonymous with self awareness.

Vik Jindal [00:14:59]:
Right.

Vision Battlesword [00:15:00]:
But it sounds like what you're saying is that self awareness is a prerequisite for healthy integrity.

Vik Jindal [00:15:05]:
Yes, yes. Self awareness, self examination, self reflection.

Vision Battlesword [00:15:10]:
The word consciousness. You, you mentioned it a moment ago, but the word conscious was coming up for me while you were talking in the sense of just like. Is that what we're really talking about here?

Vik Jindal [00:15:21]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:15:21]:
Are we really talking about integrity or we're really talking about levels of consciousness, you know, AKA self awareness?

Vik Jindal [00:15:28]:
Yeah. And again, I, I sort of think about. I, I keep going back to this idea of, like, if integrity means whole, like, we are always effectively whole, it's just like, we may not see parts of ourselves. And so.

Vision Battlesword [00:15:45]:
I was thinking about that wholeness concept a moment ago, and I wanted to say, like, there's a phrase maybe that makes sense in this integrity conversation to say that someone is well put together, you know, like, like maybe integrity has, has a lot to do with a recognition in, in yourself or in someone else, but that, like, my parts are well fit or like my parts are coherent. Like, there's a, maybe there's a coherence element to it. Like, yeah, that person has integrity in the sense that they seem to be There's a consistency, an aspect of consistency to integrity, which also reflects back on all those other themes. Like, I did what I said I was going to do. I represent myself authentically. I don't try to be something that I'm not or pretend that I'm something that I'm not.

Vik Jindal [00:16:43]:
Right. I guess it's like bending my brain a little bit, to be honest, this whole concept as we talk about it more, because I'm thinking that that's healthy integrity that you're talking about, though, like, so give me an example of somebody who's not well put together for a sec. And like, what does that mean exactly?

Vision Battlesword [00:17:04]:
Okay. Yeah, good question. So, well, okay, so I think this is a good. A good way of trying to get at what is integrity, maybe would be to start with trying to answer the question, well, what does being out of integrity look like?

Vik Jindal [00:17:19]:
Right.

Vision Battlesword [00:17:19]:
Great. So, like, if I'm thinking of someone who's out of integrity, I'm thinking of someone who is maybe operating at odds with what seems to be their deeper nature or their deeper desires or their deeper will. Maybe like. Like this existential kink idea that you're bringing up, I feel is on point, like, we're right, the target somehow with that. But it's like, yeah, someone's out of integrity. It's like, you know, you really seem to be. It's like, it's like, okay, take me, for example, what you know about me. And then if you came over to my house one day and you found that it was just like a mess.

Vik Jindal [00:18:01]:
Right.

Vision Battlesword [00:18:01]:
Like, it looks like we had a party here two weeks ago.

Vik Jindal [00:18:05]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:18:05]:
You know, like, yeah, bro, are you out of integrity right now?

Vik Jindal [00:18:08]:
Right, right, right.

Vision Battlesword [00:18:09]:
Does that make sense? So I think there's an aspect of that. Of. Of. It's like your actions are not in alignment with your. Gosh, how do I. What would I say? Your nature.

Vik Jindal [00:18:23]:
But you see how, like, this out of integrity concept kind of gets mold. Because I was like, I mean, it's who you are at that moment. There's this thing that's coming up that's. So you're just. The question is, do you see it or not?

Vision Battlesword [00:18:35]:
Right. And. But then there's another. Okay, yes. But there's also another layer of. So suppose you come over and you discover my place is a mess. It looks like we had a party two weeks ago, and I. And I haven't cleaned up, and I'm living in this different state, a more disorganized state than what seems to be my normal State of nature, but I'm actually totally cool with it.

Vik Jindal [00:18:55]:
Yeah. Actually, I think that that is. I think that feels like that's higher integrity. What would be lower integrity? Actually, like. Or not lower integrity. Unhealthier integrity is if your. Your living room was clean, but then, like, in your. In your closets and in your bedroom, you're actually hiding, like, this massive mess.

Vik Jindal [00:19:13]:
And that because you didn't want. You're. It's like, not conveying the mask that you would otherwise be wearing.

Vision Battlesword [00:19:22]:
That's what it is.

Vik Jindal [00:19:23]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:19:23]:
Yeah. Right. That. That's a part of it. That's a piece of it. That. That. That's what I was trying to communicate or.

Vision Battlesword [00:19:29]:
Or trying to touch on is like, there's something out of alignment. Right. Something out of sync right here where it's like, I'm. Either. There's something that's secretly true, but I'm not allowing that to be manifest or represented or visible to others, or. I think the other piece of it is, like, again, coming back to the. You come over. My place is a mess.

Vision Battlesword [00:19:53]:
It's disorganized, but I'm cool with it.

Vik Jindal [00:19:55]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:19:55]:
I'm like, no, Vic, this is just like, the new way that I am now.

Vik Jindal [00:19:58]:
Right.

Vision Battlesword [00:19:58]:
Actually, like, for.

Vik Jindal [00:19:59]:
Hey, I'm going through something, and I just don't have the capacity to clean.

Vision Battlesword [00:20:03]:
Up right now versus Versus you being able to tell that. I'm actually really stressed out about this. Like, this is like, I'm. I'm. I am out of integrity because I'm. My wishes or my desires or my will is not in alignment with my actual behavior, my actual practice. So it's like, I think there's an element of, like, whether this is by choice or whether this is a manifestation of dysfunction.

Vik Jindal [00:20:31]:
Oh, that's interesting. I wasn't going to go there. That's a. That's an interesting. See, that's why it's like. Because it's such. It's so many layers, right? Because, like, you could argue that they're all a reflection of who you are. So what's the unhealthy version versus the healthy version? At that moment, your house is directly correlated to your internal state of being.

Vision Battlesword [00:20:56]:
There we go.

Vik Jindal [00:20:57]:
Right. So you're always in integrity with that internal state of being. So the question is, what is the house reflecting? And what internal state of being is that reflecting?

Vision Battlesword [00:21:10]:
Mm.

Vik Jindal [00:21:10]:
Right. So if you are. Let's say you change your mind, you don't like organization, and so therefore, like, I just want to have a dirty house now. Okay. That's like. And you're. And you're genuinely cool with that.

Vision Battlesword [00:21:25]:
The way that I would say it is, I'm living in a state of flow.

Vik Jindal [00:21:28]:
Yeah, right, right, exactly. So, you know, this is like an honorous reflection of where you're at right now. I would also argue that if you. Or, like, your house is a mess, you're stressed out, you'd like it to be clean, but, like, you just don't have the capacity to do that. I would also argue that that's still high, high integrity if you're not lying to yourself about that.

Vision Battlesword [00:21:50]:
Yeah, right, right. We're coming back to honesty. We're coming back to truth and promises and values. Because like, suppose I said to you, cleanliness is my highest value. Actually, I. I truly believe that cleanliness is second only to Godliness, and it's my highest value. It's really, really important to me that I always keep a clean space, and I really appreciate other people that do. And then you came over and saw my house as a disaster area, like, literally filthy, unsanitary.

Vision Battlesword [00:22:27]:
I would be out of integrity with at least what I've stated as my. My desired nature or my, my desired way of being or what my internal compass is about, good or moral.

Vik Jindal [00:22:43]:
I mean, I would argue that it could be just in contravention to what you state you value.

Vision Battlesword [00:22:51]:
Fair.

Vik Jindal [00:22:51]:
Right. And so then the question is, what is creating the disconnect between what you state you value and then what you clearly otherwise value?

Vision Battlesword [00:23:03]:
Well, now we're getting back to existential kink, right? In the sense of I keep having bad relationships, I hate these type of men, women, whatever, being treated this way, this, that, and the other. But then it's like, well, your actions are speaking louder than your words right now. What's a deeper need that you're getting met here? Or what's a deeper value that's really more true for you?

Vik Jindal [00:23:25]:
Exactly.

Vision Battlesword [00:23:25]:
That you may have not actually acknowledged. Witnessed.

Vik Jindal [00:23:29]:
Exactly. And so that, to me is unhealthy integrity. And that's like, that's sort of the.

Vision Battlesword [00:23:34]:
Okay, so unhealthy integrity, the way you're defining it is a level of unconsciousness of your own true nature.

Vik Jindal [00:23:42]:
Yes. God, exactly, exactly, exactly, exactly. That feels true to me. Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:23:49]:
Okay.

Vik Jindal [00:23:49]:
Right. And so then the way to get to healthy integrity is to do an examination of self, to understand what is happening within you so that, like, you know, you can understand yourself, your nature better, see what shadows are operating, and then clean those up if you want to, or whatever, be with those, integrate Those shadows, et cetera, and then be in an external state of being, in a greater awareness of what is inside of you and like is coming forth outside of you.

Vision Battlesword [00:24:21]:
Now, that's an interesting use of a word that you just said to integrate the shadows.

Vik Jindal [00:24:26]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:24:27]:
In this conversation about integrity. Yeah. So maybe this is another layer or perspective on the whole idea of integrity that we're kind of servicing, which is. So there's parts of us that can become disintegrated.

Vik Jindal [00:24:42]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:24:43]:
Right.

Vik Jindal [00:24:43]:
Separated, almost like within ourselves to achieve.

Vision Battlesword [00:24:47]:
A higher, or maybe in your word, healthier level of integrity. Integration of those parts can be a part of that because we're becoming more complete or whole. Right.

Vik Jindal [00:24:58]:
In that process, it's like, I would say less divided. Right. Because you're whole. Even if you are a pie that has all the slices, you're still a whole pie. Right. So the question is, are you less divided within yourself? Like, are there parts of you that you're not allowing yourself to see within yourself?

Vision Battlesword [00:25:15]:
Right, right.

Vik Jindal [00:25:16]:
You know.

Vision Battlesword [00:25:18]:
Yeah. This word whole is problematic. I. I keep coming back to it because it's a big part of what's in the dictionary.

Vik Jindal [00:25:25]:
Right.

Vision Battlesword [00:25:26]:
But to your point, I'm agreeing with you that it's not super useful. The. The concept of it isn't super useful. It's more about. It's not about wholeness per se. Unless there's parts of you that could actually literally get lost.

Vik Jindal [00:25:42]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:25:43]:
Go away. Which I don't think either one of us really thinks that. I think it's more that they get buried or become invisible or are somehow in a. In a space within our psyche that we can't currently access, but they're still there. But it's more about. It's more about separation, isolation, partitioning.

Vik Jindal [00:26:06]:
Exactly. That's how I think about it.

Vision Battlesword [00:26:08]:
Okay.

Vik Jindal [00:26:09]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:26:10]:
So. So there's an aspect of integration and therefore becoming an integrity which has to do with removing those separations or partitions between our parts and allowing them to be more uniform.

Vik Jindal [00:26:25]:
Yeah. Have you ever heard that? You know, I'm sure, and I know you've heard this term is like, you know, as above, so below, as within, so without. And that kind of concept, you know, and it's like we are just reflections of what's happening inside of us. And so if we have a lot of these partitions within us, we also have typically a lot of masks that we wear in society, different versions of ourselves that would show different people. But if you get to a healthier level of integrity, the masks start to drop. Away and who you are is the same to all these various people. So like, for example, when I started going on my own internal journey, I realized that I had very unhealthy integrity and many masks that I wore, you know, I had like friends mask, work mask, family mask, you know, just different kind of versions of myself because there's a part of me that I didn't want to show others. And so then as I worked on myself, not realizing with this framework or anything else, but as I worked into deeper reflection of myself and awareness of what's happening inside of me, I realized this change was happening where my masks were coming down and I enjoyed the masks were dropping and everyone was just seeing the same Vic.

Vik Jindal [00:27:40]:
And in fact, I love that, you know, and so that's kind of what I've noticed.

Vision Battlesword [00:27:45]:
It takes a lot of energy to maintain multiple characters, don't you think?

Vik Jindal [00:27:48]:
I. I tell you, it's so much easier to, to be just consistently the person who you are, but it's also like a lot more fun and interesting and like flowy with life and everything. And it. That's a great deal of like self assuredness and confidence. And you, you start to love yourself a lot. You realize. I don't know if what comes first, the chicken or the egg taking down the masks is because you love yourself or you love yourself more because you've taken that. You know what I mean? Like, you take down the masks because you love yourself.

Vik Jindal [00:28:16]:
Or you know, it's like it's. But that's naturally true, you know, but it is, you're right. It's like exhausting to wear a lot of masks. And that's like, I think the nature of keeping up all these like separations within oneself.

Vision Battlesword [00:28:30]:
What do you think about that? The directionality or the causality of that, that equation that you just mentioned, like, does self esteem precede having the level of competence or self assuredness to be able to be more authentically yourself as opposed to playing different characters for different social contexts? Or do you think it goes in the other direction that allowing yourself to take those masks off or let those characters take a. Take a break and then building up that level of experience of showing your true self to other people and then being reflected back from them in whatever way they receive you, building your self confidence or self esteem, or do you think it can go in either direction?

Vik Jindal [00:29:19]:
I really almost think they happen contemporaneously because it's like there's something naturally that comes from having an honest look at yourself. It's like that story of Narcissus, right? When you're having a thought with yourself, what are you doing? You're making a mental projection of yourself, and you're having a conversation with that person. So the question is, what does that person that you're having a conversation with look like? Is it better than you are? You become a crazy narcissist. Is it worse than you are? You maybe feel totally inferior, as you are for all your good parts and your bad parts. And you have an honest conversation with yourself, and you start to see the nuance of yourself. I find that the people up here are the same people that are actually down here, and they just kind of vacillate in some ways between those two, just like the outsides of a pinwheel versus being in the center. I think as you examine within yourself, my experience is like you examine within yourself. You realize all the things you didn't like about yourself are also some of the things that create some of your greatest gifts, actually.

Vik Jindal [00:30:19]:
And it's like this is like this nuanced. It's sort of like looking at yourself as like a form of art almost in its own right. And it comes with all these different aspects that created all these really cool attributes of yourself. You know what I mean? And so then when I did that, I started to really appreciate my journey in my life and who I am and the way I think and the way I do things and, you know, the way my mind works and people in my life, like, everything.

Vision Battlesword [00:30:47]:
You know, what was different about those different characters that you would play? Like, you talk about, you know, work and social and family. What was different about those different characters? And where did you learn that that's how life is done, that we don't. That there's. That we have to be different people in different situations and not just one person.

Vik Jindal [00:31:11]:
You know, there's like, a lot of, like, you know, personal stuff that comes from that, but it's like. It's where I learned that stuff is mostly as a child.

Vision Battlesword [00:31:21]:
So, yeah, I'm just. I'm just curious about that and. And I'd be. I'd be glad to reciprocate. And, yeah, I, like, share my experience with playing different characters in the world and, like, where I think that may have come from. Where. Where I'm. I'm more interested in the.

Vision Battlesword [00:31:35]:
In the anthrop. Logical.

Vik Jindal [00:31:36]:
Yeah, yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:31:37]:
Conversation of, like, where do we collectively tend to learn this lesson or the. Or. Or get this idea that, yeah, you can't actually be just your own true self at Work.

Vik Jindal [00:31:50]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:31:51]:
Yeah. You can't just be your own true self, you know, at a party or whatever. That looks like you have to be, like, a certain. You have to be captain professional at work, and then you have to be, you know, captain charismatic or fun. Fun guy at the party or whatever that. Right, right, right, right. What do you think about that?

Vik Jindal [00:32:09]:
Yeah, I mean, I think it's like, it's through all life experience, not one specific area, but soak it up from the environment. Yeah. Like, so, like. Like, if you have a family dynamic at home where, you know, you're arguing, for example, and then you, like, go to a party with your family, and then, like, when you're at the party, you're like, the perfect family.

Vision Battlesword [00:32:33]:
Right.

Vik Jindal [00:32:33]:
Like, what does that really teach you? What is it? It teaches you that you're not good enough the way you are, probably. And then it also teaches you that faking it is fine. Right. And so I think there's a lot of dynamics that people have, like, that where they're supposed to be a certain way. Anytime I feel like I'm like, oh, I'm supposed to be that way, that way. That's a reflection of, like, an unhealthy integrity, you know, it's like this thing that I'm supposed to be, and it separates you from, like, what is. You know.

Vision Battlesword [00:33:06]:
Yeah.

Vik Jindal [00:33:07]:
Oh, I shouldn't be happier. I shouldn't be more pleasant. I shouldn't be, whatever. And it's like. It's like a separation from looking at the shadow that's making you feel the way you're feeling. You know, it's like you don't want to look at it because it's too hard, you know? So we create these, like, masks, or. You don't want to show anybody this part of yourself.

Vision Battlesword [00:33:29]:
Do you think that there's some contexts where a certain amount of, like, filtering or, let's say, customization, you know, of your profile for an environment is appropriate. Like, what would the world be like? And I asked this question because I. I've been on a personal journey for a long time. Like, something that really shaped me a huge amount, like, was hugely influential on me, was reading the book Radical Honesty when I was 18 or 19 years old, and it really changed my life. And I think it's a big part of the reason why, like, we were talking. I don't remember it was before, after we started the recording, but just talking about, like, the way I am and what archetype I am and how I just. I kind of see and experience things Differently than a lot of people do and stuff. And I think that's one of the.

Vision Battlesword [00:34:22]:
One of the biggest reasons is. Is I've kind of been playing this quote unquote, integrity game or honesty or authenticity game for a long time. But I've also definitely had a lot of experiences with being completely constructed, being. Being completely manufactured, intentionally manufactured as a character that I'm playing in the world.

Vik Jindal [00:34:48]:
Like.

Vision Battlesword [00:34:48]:
Like, literally I did. You know, now we're really going. I'm going down a little bit of a rabbit hole here with the explanation.

Vik Jindal [00:34:56]:
No, it's interesting, but I'm fascinated.

Vision Battlesword [00:34:58]:
Yeah. You know, there was a point in my life where I was married to a professional actor, and I got into acting myself at the time, which was really wonderful, like, really enjoyable experience. And it's something I really enjoy doing a lot theater acting in this case. But it made me re. Both realize and conscious of the actual characters that I manufacture and play in those different situations. And I actually started doing it intentionally from time to time, like, actually taking on the approach of, okay, what care, who am I in this situation? And actually role playing it as if it's a performance, which is an interesting point in my life, like, going all the way from radical honesty to, like, radical phoniness, if you call it that.

Vik Jindal [00:35:51]:
You're saying, again, your personal life or your professional life or. You mean in acting?

Vision Battlesword [00:35:56]:
No, I'm talking about. I took, like, the lessons of acting into my personal and professional life and, like, made it an intentional performance.

Vik Jindal [00:36:03]:
I see.

Vision Battlesword [00:36:04]:
At certain. At certain point, like, there were a few years in my life, and a lot of it did have to do with, like, you're talking about your family, like, kind of putting on the show in social settings, even though it's like, internally speaking, things are not. Definitely not okay.

Vik Jindal [00:36:18]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:36:19]:
But we have this presentation of, like, we're this perfect family that definitely, like, me and my wife at the time were doing that. You know, we were. We were putting on this present like our friends a lot. Like, our. Our friends in our social circles really had the impression of us as, like, this amazing dream couple. Like, like, people looked up, looked at us and was like, that's what I want to be like. And in reality, things were not okay. You know, like, in many cases, behind the scenes that we were performing, we were literally acting.

Vision Battlesword [00:36:48]:
Then. Then there's also been times in my life where I really embraced this idea of, like, radical authenticity. And even in professional situations or those kind of settings where the typical rules of the game from a cultural perspective are, you know, Keep your poker face. Don't let them see you sweat. Like, it's not appropriate to show your emotions in this setting. Or, you know, you've got to keep it well put together. Professionalism, this, that and the other. Embracing the idea of, like, radical authenticity, of like, let's all just be ourselves.

Vision Battlesword [00:37:26]:
Let's all just be real people here. Let. It's okay, you know, to cry, it's okay to emote. It's okay to be whoever it is that you are in this moment. And I think that there's a lot of permission given for that in what we call our conscious or spiritual community. Right. Like the, that there's an invitation in some, some cases, in some circles to really experiment with that. And I've also seen the dark sides of that.

Vik Jindal [00:37:54]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:37:55]:
So all of that is a big preamble for this question that I was trying to ask, which is, do you think that there are good reasons to not be completely transparent or completely authentic or, like, to have different, let's say, manifestations of your Persona which are all equally honest, but that don't have to necessarily be like the full nudity of opening the kimono?

Vik Jindal [00:38:20]:
Yes.

Vision Battlesword [00:38:21]:
And what would the world be like if, if everybody was operating in full integrity a hundred percent of the time? Like, would it be a shit show or would it actually be Utopia? Or would it just be some, I.

Vik Jindal [00:38:33]:
Mean, that's a really interesting question. I feel like that would be closer to Utopia. I, I, I think. But I'd probably want to give that more thought. But I, it feels like that feels true. Like, I, I think that if, if we're in this place of, of, let's say, being with this idea of integrity equals healthy integrity. Way I was using it then, I'm pretty sure, I feel pretty confident that if everyone was in full reflection of how they feel internally and in constant exploration of how they feel internally, the world would be a better place. I do feel that that's true.

Vik Jindal [00:39:07]:
So that they're not acting out of these shadow desires. Then. The other question that you're raising is a really interesting one because there are definitely times where you have to put on some kind of performance for whatever reason. Let's say you're like, I don't know, I'm just going to pick up, let's say you're a spy in a terrorist organization. You definitely can't just be like, hey, I'm a spy in this organization. Right. You have to wear mask. Right.

Vik Jindal [00:39:42]:
So the question I think is, is it coming from a place of, of like, Kind of self loathing, for example, or like a darker place or does it come from a need, from a utility aspect potentially? I don't know. I'm exploring this idea a little bit because, like, you know, there's this idea that, you know, we're all these different archetypes and we can actually like almost like call in different archetypes as, as we need them, you know, And I'm reminded of this. I was like listening to Russell Crowe speak recently and you know, he was in. He was in Rome. You know, this was like years ago. He's just walking through Rome and went to some store and he's shopping and you know, he sees all this like commotion on the, on the streets and all these like, peoples. Like, he goes outside the store and there's like people like up and down the streets of Rome and he goes up to the police officer and he's like, is everything okay? He's like, Maximus, for you. You are the eighth emperor of Rome.

Vik Jindal [00:40:46]:
Like, he took on the Persona of Maximus, you know, Desmos, Meridius, whatever, so fully that like the. They were like calling him for you, anything general, you know, it was like that, you know, it was like. And he experienced that many times actually when he was in Rome and in Italy and stuff like where like they lit up the Sistine Chape for him and they only do that for the Pope.

Vision Battlesword [00:41:06]:
Wow.

Vik Jindal [00:41:07]:
Yeah. Yeah. You know, stuff like that. And it's interesting that like you can embody kind of different types of archetypes. I'm not sure that that's like necessarily out of integrity. I guess it depends on the reason that you're doing it and like what the external reason is. I don't know. I want to think about that some more.

Vik Jindal [00:41:29]:
I don't have a. To be honest, I'm fully with the idea that I do not have a good answer because maybe there's a sense of what masks are. Okay, let's say you're in a place of unhealthy integrity. And if you have a non honest view of yourself and then that creates desire to wear masks with other people because you have an unhealthy view of yourself, it feels like that's unhealthy. And it feels like if you have a healthy awareness of yourself, but you're using the mask for a specific purpose, that has a need more like a utility. It's like. It doesn't. It's not the same type of mask, I think.

Vision Battlesword [00:42:09]:
What about. Yes, okay. I like. That was. Yeah, I like what you said. There about there being different types of masks.

Vik Jindal [00:42:15]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:42:16]:
Because it was a perfect bridge to what I was about to say. Which is what about the distinction of whether or not other people are aware that you're intentionally wearing a mask. Like so just another thought experiment. We might create a masquerade ball.

Vik Jindal [00:42:37]:
Right.

Vision Battlesword [00:42:38]:
Which is for fun.

Vik Jindal [00:42:39]:
Right.

Vision Battlesword [00:42:40]:
And everyone is going to wear a mask. That's actually part of the thing.

Vik Jindal [00:42:44]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:42:44]:
And it's part of the fun.

Vik Jindal [00:42:46]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:42:46]:
It's like this little game that we're playing.

Vik Jindal [00:42:48]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:42:48]:
You know.

Vik Jindal [00:42:49]:
Right. I mean, like there's no, there's clearly nothing.

Vision Battlesword [00:42:51]:
Disguising ourselves and whatever.

Vik Jindal [00:42:53]:
Right.

Vision Battlesword [00:42:54]:
And we may or may not, and may, you know, to a greater or lesser degree actually attempt to disguise ourself or just be wearing a mask as a decoration. But yeah, like I, I have come to the conclusion that full transparency, full, you know, full 100% unfiltered, high volume transparency, if everyone was doing it all the time, would actually not be healthy for social cohesion for society. I feel that there's an aspect of having a private internal experience and choosing how much of that it's. It's about levels of intimacy really. It's like how much intimacy do you want to be having with different people in different situations? And what's the level of appropriateness for this particular situation around the level of intimacy that we need to have for whatever the goal of the current, you know, experience is.

Vik Jindal [00:43:59]:
That's different from integrity. Like you, you would you agree that if everyone was in integrity, healthy integrity in their life, in the world, that the world would be better?

Vision Battlesword [00:44:09]:
I'm not, I'm still not like 100% dialed in on what integrity is. Exactly.

Vik Jindal [00:44:16]:
Yeah, but what, what you call integrity, I guess I would call healthy integrity. I think it's a. More of a.

Vision Battlesword [00:44:22]:
What I call integrity. Yes. My answer is yes.

Vik Jindal [00:44:26]:
Okay. Yes.

Vision Battlesword [00:44:26]:
Like what I call integrity. If I imagine, if I imagine people being honest, reliable, true to themself, authentic, being in alignment with their own values and being honest and representing what those values are to other people. That's what I call integrity. Yeah. Yes. I would love for everyone to be doing that.

Vik Jindal [00:44:47]:
Yeah. So like. But I would also agree that like, nobody asked, not everyone has to know that you're in a fight with your wife. Because I don't think that that serves necessarily you and your wife's kind of relationship and what you're going through might.

Vision Battlesword [00:45:01]:
Be none of your business.

Vik Jindal [00:45:03]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:45:03]:
Right now.

Vik Jindal [00:45:04]:
Well, I mean it. One is almost definitely nobody else's business. But like, beyond that doesn't actually serve.

Vision Battlesword [00:45:11]:
Right.

Vik Jindal [00:45:11]:
The. The actual tension that's arising between you and your wife and you actually could be destructive to that tension.

Vision Battlesword [00:45:18]:
Right. But I think the flip side of that is like what we, we've both experienced in our life of actually putting on a false presentation, an intentionally false presentation for others, for whatever reason it is that we do that to mask our own vulnerability or lack of self esteem or insecurity about whatever the situation is that we're going through, or to try to manipulate or to get more out of a particular situation or whatever, whatever those reasons are. I feel that we've been taught to do that and that that is unhealthy. Right. So I feel like we're kind of like going through this process right now or doing this dance with finding the balance between integrity and authenticity and vulnerability and appropriate behavior and privacy and whatever all that stuff is. An example that I want to bring up real quick is like a brief conversation that I had with a friend of mine when we got together, you know, to have a little social date together. And just, you know, like we, like we do the preliminary small talk of how are you today? Or whatever. And he said, I'm pretty good.

Vision Battlesword [00:46:33]:
I said, oh, are you really? Pretty good?

Vik Jindal [00:46:38]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:46:38]:
He said, well, if I'm being honest, I'm all right.

Vik Jindal [00:46:42]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:46:43]:
I'm like, is everything all right? Is all actually right.

Vik Jindal [00:46:48]:
Right.

Vision Battlesword [00:46:48]:
He's just like, no, actually there's something that I don't want to talk about that.

Vik Jindal [00:46:55]:
And thank you vision for frying it.

Vision Battlesword [00:46:56]:
Out, you know, but. But I think that that little conversation, he was actually very, let's say. What do I want to say? Grateful. Exactly.

Vik Jindal [00:47:03]:
Relieved?

Vision Battlesword [00:47:05]:
More like he appreciated. He. He actually appreciated that conversation.

Vik Jindal [00:47:10]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:47:11]:
Of not just me, not just allowing the emotional content of what was obviously present to just get papered over with some platitude of I'm okay, whatever.

Vik Jindal [00:47:24]:
I've had that experience. I know he preferred, he actually preferred.

Vision Battlesword [00:47:29]:
Where we ultimately ended up, which is there is something going on. It is present with us. I'm not ready to talk about it right now, but thank you for asking.

Vik Jindal [00:47:39]:
Right.

Vision Battlesword [00:47:39]:
And thank you for your empathy. Right, right. As opposed to it didn't have to go all the way in one direction or the other where it's like this, you know, stoic, like everything is okay pretense, but it also doesn't have to be pop the cork and let's, let's, let's have it out.

Vik Jindal [00:47:54]:
Right.

Vision Battlesword [00:47:55]:
It feels like go down the middle of this is true. And it's Mine, but that.

Vik Jindal [00:48:01]:
Yeah. So that is. Oh, man, it's so interesting. So that feels. It. It clearly feels better because like, if your friend was not feeling okay and he's. He's sort of saying, I'm feeling okay, the question is like, what's his intention in doing that? I think to some degree, if his intention is. I'm saying okay because it's not okay to.

Vik Jindal [00:48:26]:
It's not okay to not be okay. Right. Then that feels sort of problematic. It feels like when the intention is reflecting like self judgment in some way, then.

Vision Battlesword [00:48:44]:
Yeah. There could be shame.

Vik Jindal [00:48:45]:
Yeah. That's like a lot.

Vision Battlesword [00:48:47]:
I don't want to talk about this because. Yeah, this is my personal shame that I'm dealing with or. Yeah. Pain or whatever.

Vik Jindal [00:48:52]:
Yeah. But like when the mask. When a mask comes up that feels like it's related to self judgment, that. That can be a little bit insidious.

Vision Battlesword [00:49:02]:
And it could be like the just contextually appropriate thing like that I was talking about before. It's like, yeah, something happened this morning, but we're here at the park to work out together. Right. And this. I. I don't want to talk about this now. I want to be with you now. I want to be doing this thing now.

Vik Jindal [00:49:20]:
Totally. Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:49:21]:
So there's part partially that. But what I thought was really interesting about that little moment as a microcosm of this thing that we do with each other, I think all the time, is that when my friend said. When I said, hey, how's it going today? And my friend said, pretty good.

Vik Jindal [00:49:43]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:49:44]:
There was a cognitive dissonance, which I think we do this all the time.

Vik Jindal [00:49:48]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:49:48]:
Where he's saying the words that he's supposed to say.

Vik Jindal [00:49:51]:
Right.

Vision Battlesword [00:49:51]:
I'm just, I'm saying I'm. I'm using the script.

Vik Jindal [00:49:54]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:49:54]:
The normal friendship connection script.

Vik Jindal [00:49:57]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:49:57]:
Of pretty good.

Vik Jindal [00:49:58]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:49:59]:
But there's actually. What I actually really want you to know.

Vik Jindal [00:50:02]:
Yes.

Vision Battlesword [00:50:03]:
Through my tone and my body language is that everything is not all okay.

Vik Jindal [00:50:07]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:50:08]:
And so that's what's really true.

Vik Jindal [00:50:09]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he. And, and he wants you to know that they're true. Actually, like his. There's. Whatever's happening is just like, he's like, I'm. I'm not doing well. He's not actually putting on that good of a mask to be.

Vision Battlesword [00:50:22]:
And I think almost intentionally.

Vik Jindal [00:50:24]:
No, that's what I'm saying. I'm saying like, that's like, that he, like, it's like if he wanted you to think that he was okay, like, truly like he was. Like, he could have play.

Vision Battlesword [00:50:36]:
Acted a lot better than that.

Vik Jindal [00:50:37]:
Yes.

Vision Battlesword [00:50:38]:
Right.

Vik Jindal [00:50:38]:
So, yeah, that's interesting.

Vision Battlesword [00:50:41]:
So these, these are the moments now that I've decided I'm at a place in my life where I'm not going to let them just slide.

Vik Jindal [00:50:49]:
Yeah, no, I. I agree with that. I think I. I think one. Because I. I fully feel the same way. Like, when you feel that thing come up, just, there's a signal there that's happening. And so the question is, are you the person to pick up on the signal and acknowledge it? Right.

Vik Jindal [00:51:05]:
And so that whatever tension has arisen gets resolved in some way? It's like, you know, there's some.

Vision Battlesword [00:51:14]:
Right. You know, at least acknowledge. Yeah, like, let's acknowledge.

Vik Jindal [00:51:18]:
Yeah, that's. But that is, that is acknowledging is the releasing of the tension. Right. Because, like, I'm saying this thing, but I'm feeling this way.

Vision Battlesword [00:51:26]:
Right.

Vik Jindal [00:51:26]:
And so now there's this, like, this discordant kind of thing that's happening.

Vision Battlesword [00:51:30]:
Right.

Vik Jindal [00:51:31]:
And so by you acknowledging it, we are now, like with. By you asking and then that person acknowledging it, now we're in a full understanding of your true state of being.

Vision Battlesword [00:51:41]:
Yeah, exactly. So, and what, and what's the point of doing a check in if we're not going to do a real check in?

Vik Jindal [00:51:47]:
Totally.

Vision Battlesword [00:51:48]:
Like, what's the point? I'm just like, I don't have time for this anymore.

Vik Jindal [00:51:51]:
Totally.

Vision Battlesword [00:51:52]:
Okay, if I'm gonna say, how are you? I want to know. I'm curious. I want to know so that we can, like, start this conversation, this date, this whatever it is, so we can start it with, like, getting coming into coherence. You know, it's like, oh, you're struggling with something. Okay, well, you know, do you want some help? Do you want just some, you know, do you want just some emotional compassion? Do you want to distract yourself with exercise? Like, yeah, what do you want? But you know, if you're gonna. Yeah, if we're gonna check in, then, like, yeah, tell me what's true. Let's not. Let's.

Vision Battlesword [00:52:27]:
Let's be real with each other.

Vik Jindal [00:52:28]:
Yeah, yeah, totally. And it's. It's kind of reminding me about this idea. It feels like there's a. There's in increasing. I think we talked about before, and this feels like, like, I don't know, for whatever reason, we're at this, like, turning point. It feels like societally a lot of people feel this personally or at this, like, turning point where. And I think the turning point is you're making Me, kind of like, I've been, like, trying to lean into how to articulate it.

Vik Jindal [00:52:57]:
And I've sort of played with this idea that our willingness to be in discordant structures is, like, eroding. Like, our desire to deal with that is our bullshit meter is just going out the fucking window, right? And so I think about. If you think about systems where there's some discordant, let's say, lack of homeostasis, kind of discordant energy that's there, right? So I guess how I think about it is the universe has a tendency towards resolving that in some way, shape or form. And so you doing that is you acknowledging that there's something there, and then your desire to do that. I think a lot of people are having a greater desire to be like, are you sure? That kind of thing that's happening. But this is like. It's actually. I'm seeing it everywhere, this kind of thing.

Vik Jindal [00:53:47]:
So, for example, and we've talked about that sort of tower thing, the tower analogy. And that basically is based on the same idea. So it's like you have the relationship between two people, and there's this sort of unacknowledged tension, so discordant energy that's kind of gone unacknowledged between the two of them that they hate each other. And so they decide to. Instead of acknowledging the fact that they hate each other and kind of figuring out some other alternative of what they're doing with their lives, they decide to get married, buy a house, have kids. So now they're less incentivized to be honest with one another, because if they were honest with one another, from here they decide they would have to unwind what they've created.

Vision Battlesword [00:54:28]:
You've raised the stakes, resolving the tension, right?

Vik Jindal [00:54:32]:
And so then they keep on raising the stakes. It actually drives them further into raising the stakes. The pressure builds until it gets so, you know, they just add more and more shit onto their lives on this rocky foundation of the fact that they hate each other. But it's unacknowledged until eventually the pressure gets so large, the tower gets so big, eventually a gust of wind comes and just blows the whole thing down. Some weakness is the fragility in the system kind of creates crashing down. And so there's two ways to resolve that tower once it's built is one, it comes crashing down like that, which resolves that lack of homeostasis. Because now that pressure that's there has now been resolved. Or you can actively have a conversation between those two people and Resolve and be honest with one another about what's happening and resolve to figure out how to discuss how to resolve that discordance, that disturbance in there, this unresolved tension.

Vik Jindal [00:55:33]:
So in this case between this couple, they could say, let's unwind what we've created, sell everything, get divorced, and that's one thing. Or they could say, hey, we don't love each other, but we love our children and we can cohabitate, we can tolerate each other enough, we can date other people, whatever. And then they build like, they reinforce their tower, they reinforce the structure, et cetera. And so that's like solving the discordance either by resolving the issue or it comes undone almost by violent means with the tower coming down. And I thought a great example of this might feel like non sequitur, but it's kind of an interesting example of this was when the UnitedHealth CEO got murdered. So the United Health CEO, he's in New York, he gets shot by this guy, Luigi. And it's really interesting is that like, I don't know what percent of the population, but it's like a non, you know, it's non trivial part of the percentage of the population that's like really happy that this Luigi guy murdered this other human being. Right.

Vik Jindal [00:56:34]:
And like, what's interesting to me is let's just say it was 50%. I don't actually know what the percentage is, but let's just say 50% of the people are happy this guy's dead and 50% are not happy. So what's interesting to me is that you have this healthcare insurance kind of structure and then the people at its services and there's this, what the percentage is demonstrating is actually there's discordance between the health insurance company industry and what UnitedHealth was doing and potentially others. And then the customers that it serves, like, you know, he murdered another human being. Under, under any normal circumstances somebody comes up and shoots another human being, normally.

Vision Battlesword [00:57:16]:
There'D be universal outrage and condemnation.

Vik Jindal [00:57:19]:
Exactly.

Vision Battlesword [00:57:20]:
But in this case, there's a large percentage of people who seem to be kind of like happy about this.

Vik Jindal [00:57:27]:
Exactly.

Vision Battlesword [00:57:28]:
And even glorifying it.

Vik Jindal [00:57:30]:
Exactly. And so what I'm pointing out is that there, that's representative of some discordance in the structure of the healthcare industry. And so either, okay, using the tower analogy, either that discordance gets resolved through cooperation, communication, understanding, and like actively restructuring the system such that they can come into cohesion, or cohesion will be thrust upon them through violent means. And so Luigi shooting the unh Health CEO is actually like in my view an example of a system that's in discordance trying to get into homeostasis. And that's just the way that it's happening is like kind of violent revolution almost. And that's just like. I'm not saying it's not done yet. Probably.

Vik Jindal [00:58:25]:
It's just like one. It's almost like like if a dam. It's like a dam has too much water. That's like a crack.

Vision Battlesword [00:58:34]:
Yeah.

Vik Jindal [00:58:34]:
So it's relieving a little bit of pressure in some sense, but not really.

Vision Battlesword [00:58:38]:
It's more like drawing attention to the fact that. To the fact that we've got a serious structural problem here and it's just about to hit the fan.

Vik Jindal [00:58:46]:
Exactly.

Vision Battlesword [00:58:46]:
Yeah. Interesting.

Vik Jindal [00:58:48]:
Yeah, yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:58:49]:
It's funny. Well, not funny, but appropriate that you brought up the tower analogy right after what you just said. Because I was actually thinking that in the back of my mind as well. Mainstream culture is on the cusp of a big kind of tectonic shift.

Vik Jindal [00:59:03]:
Yes.

Vision Battlesword [00:59:04]:
In like the amount of that we're generally willing to accept.

Vik Jindal [00:59:07]:
Totally.

Vision Battlesword [00:59:08]:
That's what it seems like to me too. And it seems like a tower situation.

Vik Jindal [00:59:12]:
100. Yeah, yeah. You kind of see it like all over the place, you know, and that's creating a lot of mistrust with institutions and everything is like there's this coming at us all over the place, you.

Vision Battlesword [00:59:24]:
Know, that's the dam. It's not holding back water.

Vik Jindal [00:59:27]:
Totally, totally.

Vision Battlesword [00:59:28]:
Yeah.

Vik Jindal [00:59:29]:
You know, and so you can either actively like, you know, if you had a dam that had too much water, Right. You could like actively work on fixing the dam or you just wait for it to break. Right. And so like, you know, one of the things that I think is kind of an interesting thing to do is actually like bring attention to this and so that people can start having these conversations and like just being with the fact that this is happening and we can either, you can either have the self discipline because it takes a sense of discipline and a willingness to like do the thing to like fix the dam. Like it takes action on your part. Like it's like, you know, but I think like we're so conditioned a lot of times to like not look at the thing, not look at what's happening, you know, and so like the more and more people that start looking earnestly and trying to have these conversations, trying to have, trying to solve problems in an actual open, honest, open minded way with other people will start to relieve pressure in the dam. And I think the less that that happens, the more there's the likelihood of a conflagration of some kind.

Vision Battlesword [01:00:43]:
Well, now that we've explored so much and fleshed out so much, just the whole concept of what are we talking about when we say integrity? So bring it back around to me now to your original point, which has related to how much inner work we do to facilitate integrity as it manifests in the external world. The internal, external thing. Bring it back around to me.

Vik Jindal [01:01:06]:
Yeah, so let me just think about how to think about that. So there's a couple of concepts in there. Like, one is, okay, we have to stop the bleeding. And what stopping the bleeding means is right now we have all these kind of hurt people out in the world going for money, power and fame. Let's just say these people with unhealthy integrity going for money and power, fame to solve this interlac within. And they're doing anything to get it. They're getting more power, they're doing more harm. And so the more we can facilitate finding integrity within, then that person with lack no longer has lack.

Vik Jindal [01:01:48]:
So they don't have lack anymore. So now they don't need the money, power, and fame to make them feel better about themselves. And so therefore, they're not doing anything to get it. And therefore they're not building casinos where people play a game they can't win with money they can't afford to lose, or destroying the environment in order to achieve that thing. Because you already feel good about who you are as a person. You don't need to get these other trophies to make you feel better about yourself. So to some degree, that creates a less destructive kind of. Overall, we're almost like relieving the pressure on the system overall on a kind of a global basis.

Vik Jindal [01:02:28]:
And then I also think that we have a lot of problems all over the place. And a lot this, like, lack of integrity is, like, permeating everything. I kind of think of it from a mathematical standpoint. It's a little, maybe a silly idea, but I kind of like it. So it's like, you know, we have this idea that, like, hurt people, hurt people, right? If you think about the nature, and there's a lot of hurt people out there. I think these days, if you think about the nature of hurt people hurting others, they're hurting. Let's say you hurt 10 people, but you're also like, alienating yourself in the process, right? Because you just hurt all these people. And so your propensity to hurt other people actually diminishes over time.

Vik Jindal [01:03:14]:
On Average. You know, there's people who are above and below the average. But like, on average, your propensity to hurt other people actually diminishes.

Vision Battlesword [01:03:21]:
On average, unless you have money, fame and power, which case you can magnify your capability to hurt.

Vik Jindal [01:03:27]:
Yeah, that's true. That's true. Yeah, that's true. But then let's. I actually. So this is. This is actually an interesting aside. I agree with that.

Vik Jindal [01:03:35]:
I also think that, like, the interesting thing about that is, like, the people who are hurt, who are getting money, power and fame are doing that as the me, as the end goal in order to feel better about themselves. So the money, power, fame is not a tool. It is the end goal. And so the people that are not hurt could, let's say, acquire money or power. But it's not actually the end goal. It's a tool to maybe, I don't know, clean up the environment or whatever.

Vision Battlesword [01:04:07]:
Is there anyone who's not a hurt person?

Vik Jindal [01:04:10]:
Well, who knows? First of all, I certainly don't know if there's nobody. If there's anybody who's not a hurt person. I think it's more. I think the question is, is there a person who likes. Devoted to looking within themselves or not, and sort of goes back to this healthier and unhealthy integrity? That's how I think about the hurt reverses.

Vision Battlesword [01:04:27]:
Is there. Is there some specific definition of hurt like, that we should be using here, which is, I think, of unhealthy person in.

Vik Jindal [01:04:35]:
Unhealthy integrity is kind of the hurt person that I'm talking about.

Vision Battlesword [01:04:37]:
Oh, interesting. Okay. Well, so the phrase hurt people. Hurt people usually is a way of referring to the cycle of abuse. Right?

Vik Jindal [01:04:46]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:04:46]:
Meaning like victims of abuse.

Vik Jindal [01:04:49]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:04:49]:
Many times then remanifest.

Vik Jindal [01:04:52]:
Right.

Vision Battlesword [01:04:53]:
In some way that perpetuates the generational cycle.

Vik Jindal [01:04:57]:
Right.

Vision Battlesword [01:04:57]:
Of that.

Vik Jindal [01:04:58]:
Right.

Vision Battlesword [01:04:58]:
So maybe when we're talking about hurt people, maybe we're. We're not just saying like, oh, I've been hurt in my life or I've had something hurt me.

Vik Jindal [01:05:05]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:05:05]:
But we're saying, like, someone who's really experienced, like, a severe trauma is the person we're referring to as the hurt person. Is that right?

Vik Jindal [01:05:12]:
Well, no, I guess I'm talking about just in general. I would say that, like, people with unhealthy integrity. Unhealthy integrity. Or just like, let's say this, like, divided hole that we were talking about. Let's talk about those people as generally the hurt people. I'm talking about. And that divided self can come. Yeah.

Vik Jindal [01:05:36]:
From Things you experience maybe comes from generational things. Who knows where it comes from to be honest. But it's sort of this aspect of dividing within yourself. And then there's the, let's say healthy or healed rather than hurt, just to converse. The person who's more whole and again there's no way he's fully whole. It's more the person who's looking at themselves and constantly looking within themselves. And so the point is just on average, let's say you are hurting people and, but you're alienating yourself. And so your, your ability on average to hurt other people diminishes over time.

Vik Jindal [01:06:15]:
A person who is in a healthy integrity, they have no such limiter. Their influence actually only has upward trajectory. There is no like natural limit because they're not alienating themselves from other people. It's. And if anything it's growing their ability to influence. And so even if you have a lot more hurt people in the world or kind of like unhealthy integrity and you have fewer people of healthy integrity in the world over time, the actually the math is just better where the healthy integrity will convert more people that have unhealthy integrity over time.

Vision Battlesword [01:06:54]:
Because you're saying the healthy integrity tends to be additive or multiplicative, exponential, whereas unhealthy integrity tends to be sort of naturally self limiting or subtractive.

Vik Jindal [01:07:04]:
Exactly.

Vision Battlesword [01:07:05]:
Okay.

Vik Jindal [01:07:06]:
And so, and so, and then the money, power and fame is actually like kind of, they both have the capacity for that. The question is like to what ends? To what it means, why are they doing that? To me, what's interesting about this idea is that it's actually like pretty hopeful. I'm, I'm actually a very optimistic person in general. Even in the worst of times, like I don't, I always think that there's a way through. And so I, I think that people are really opening themselves up to this idea and opening because I think there's a lot of people are finding themselves to be in these either unhappy places or questioning a lot of the way that they've lived their lives or whatever and kind of doing self examination and kind of. And it can lead to this place where this self examination gets to a place where you're then doing healthier, you're in a healthier place with your integrity and then impacting others to be in a healthier place that then makes the world better at an exponential rate. I think the last time we talked you talked about this idea of the crystal. You know, it's like the crystal comes from a Seed.

Vik Jindal [01:08:10]:
And then it just kind of like comes out. Same idea.

Vision Battlesword [01:08:13]:
It's fractal geometry.

Vik Jindal [01:08:15]:
Yes.

Vision Battlesword [01:08:16]:
It starts with the smallest representation of that particular molecular geometric shape. And then that shape just continues to reproduce itself at bigger and bigger scales.

Vik Jindal [01:08:27]:
Exactly.

Vision Battlesword [01:08:28]:
That's interesting.

Vik Jindal [01:08:29]:
Yeah. And so it's sort of that idea.

Vision Battlesword [01:08:31]:
I think I want to inspect a little bit this piece that there's an assumption that I want to look into a little bit here and what you said, which is that there's a particular drive for, as you define it, money, fame and power. We could call that achievement or success or whatever that is accomplishment, material satisfaction that comes from people trying to fulfill an inner. Or fill an inner void or a sense of lack or scarcity within themselves somehow. And then you said, like that leads to people creating casinos where people play games they can't win with money they don't have and so forth.

Vik Jindal [01:09:17]:
Or, you know, like these other Producing trash that you were talking about.

Vision Battlesword [01:09:20]:
Producing trash? Yeah, like whatever that. Whatever Those what we might judge as unhealthy expressions of a pursuit of wealth or fame or. Yeah, power can look like. And then you said that if people do their inner work and become more integrated, self aware, conscious, and less divided in their parts, which we, through this conversation, we've defined as healthy integrity, they would be less driven to go and do those things. What would they be driven to do instead?

Vik Jindal [01:09:56]:
Well, so I guess how I think about it is they'd be less driven to do those things as a means into themselves or as an ends into themselves. So you might think of somebody with an unhealthy integrity who's looking to acquire money because it ads to some view of themselves. Like, have a lot of points I have. I'm better than this other person because I have money. The person with healthy integrity already has a clear view of themselves and doesn't need to augment their. It's sort of a form of acceptance that they see they're good and they're bad and they accept who they are. And so they don't need to augment that aspect of themselves through money.

Vision Battlesword [01:10:37]:
So what provides them with motivation to go out and create or invent or become successful or what is a mo. What motivates people who have healthy integrity to do good in the world?

Vik Jindal [01:10:50]:
Yeah, I think it's expression and curiosity as opposed to. If you weren't driven by the wound, what would you create?

Vision Battlesword [01:10:57]:
I might sit around and just paint.

Vik Jindal [01:10:59]:
Paintings all day or Robert Frost made poetry.

Vision Battlesword [01:11:02]:
Right?

Vik Jindal [01:11:02]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:11:03]:
So what if we had a society entirely populated by Philosophers and painters and poets and conversationalists and.

Vik Jindal [01:11:12]:
Yeah, I mean, by the way. Also. Also. But I don't want to take away the idea that, like, those. Those people could also be some form of industrialist as well. Art, I think, comes in many forms. Right. So, like, you know, I think we have this sort of idea that, like, a writer or a painter or musician is the only type of artist.

Vik Jindal [01:11:35]:
But, you know, a scientist can be an artist.

Vision Battlesword [01:11:38]:
I fully agree with that.

Vik Jindal [01:11:39]:
A mathematic can be an artist. Business person can be an artist.

Vision Battlesword [01:11:42]:
It's certainly a creative.

Vik Jindal [01:11:43]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:11:43]:
At least, you know, I have a big problem with. You know, I think there's like a mainstream stereotype. I was gonna say definition, but stereotype. Or even a caricature of, like, there's the creative person.

Vik Jindal [01:11:57]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:11:57]:
And this is what creativity looks like. And there's, like, certain definitions of the types of products that we define as creative. And then there's other people who are more. Industrialist. Entrepreneurial.

Vik Jindal [01:12:10]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:12:11]:
Mechanically inclined, scientifically inclined or so forth. And they're not creatives. They're more. Whatever. Totally. Inventors or.

Vik Jindal [01:12:20]:
Totally.

Vision Battlesword [01:12:21]:
Something along those lines. Yeah, I don't subscribe to that at all. Like, I think there's so many different expressions of human creativity that can take so many different forms, and I think that many people. I believe I fall in this, you know, category myself, like, produce things that would not necessarily fall into. Under the commonly accepted definition of art in the sense of something that hangs in a gallery.

Vik Jindal [01:12:47]:
Right.

Vision Battlesword [01:12:47]:
You know, or a sculpture or even something that's a written word or whatever. But it is my art.

Vik Jindal [01:12:53]:
Totally.

Vision Battlesword [01:12:54]:
Absolutely my art. Totally. I'm putting my creative. All of my creative energy into it.

Vik Jindal [01:12:58]:
Totally.

Vision Battlesword [01:12:59]:
And it may look like. In my case, it may look like diagrams or it may look like frameworks or spreadsheets or board games or all different types of things. So I'm with you on that. I just wanted to make sure that as we're making this differentiation between unhealthy and healthy integrity, that we're not also either intentionally or accidentally creating a dichotomy between certain internal motivations or drives that lead to, you know, certain types of creative, productive, industrial manifestations that we do enjoy in the world versus these more personal or internal or things that are more subjectively meaningful and not necessarily like, let's say. Let's say less material, less materialistic pursuits. You know what I mean? Am I making sense here? I'm just.

Vik Jindal [01:13:55]:
Yeah, you're saying, like, am I making a value judgment on what somebody produces to some degree?

Vision Battlesword [01:13:59]:
There's, there's a, there's a little bit of piece of a value judgment in it, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm saying, like, I hope what we're not doing, if we're creating healthy integrity, is turning off the spark or turning off the switch that leads to this technological society and civilization that we've created. Because all we really want to do is sit on the mountaintop and meditate or.

Vik Jindal [01:14:21]:
That's my point. I don't think that that's true. You know, like, I, I think of, like, I think it could unleash doing things that we haven't been able to fully even imagine yet in some sense because we're doing it from a well inside of us that's much deeper than this sort of desire for material accomplishment. It's this we're not looking for. If we weren't looking for money, power and fame, but we were just looking to create this expression, what kind of amazing things could that unleash within us? I was going to say about mathematicians in this. You ever heard of Ramanujan?

Vision Battlesword [01:14:56]:
I don't think so.

Vik Jindal [01:14:57]:
Ramanujan was an Indian mathematician who was very poor, very poor in India. So that's another level of poor. And I think it was like the 1940s or something like that. And he was too poor to afford books or anything like that, but he found a math book and from reading that math book, he created all kinds of theorems that people still haven't yet been able to fully comprehend. I mean, mind blowing stuff. And he, he said that to him is very pious man. He said to him, an equation means nothing to him unless it represents a thought of God, you know, And I really love that because one, that dude is a complete fucking artist, like, no question. And then two, there's just like this exploration of curiosity that's like expressed there, you know, and this sort of, this idea that like, we didn't, we didn't create math.

Vik Jindal [01:15:51]:
It's like we're uncovering it. And he's like, it's just there. This, like. There's this sort of natural expression that he's kind of going through that feels really good. It's not like I want to be the best at mathematics. It's sort of like this, this examination that's happening. And so it feels to me like that world wouldn't have any less desire to go to other stars or whatever, or create, you know, new forms of energy or whatever. It would just reset its value system around what is actually Important, but that doesn't mean that it wouldn't have toys for kids or whatever.

Vik Jindal [01:16:28]:
You know what I mean? Like, you know, it's like it's, it's just sort of like it's like recentering on. Like it's almost like a self healing system I think because like one you're exploring your curiosity. But if you're, if your curiosity is then leading to this like let's say environmental harm, you kind of like naturally go to solving that problem because that's, that's the thing that's you know, pulling you in into curiosity. It's like a, it's a system that is regenerative.

Vision Battlesword [01:16:59]:
Yeah, no, I'm, I'm, I'm satisfied with your answer, but I just really wanted to inspect and explore that a little bit because I think that is there, there is a, a meme or a belief system I think that we absorb intuitively. Like we've been talking a lot about like where do we get these ideas from. But I think there is one of these ideas which is that like people almost in our culture, by culture I mean like Western civilization, American society, there is a component of worship. Like there's a worshipfulness of that inner sense of lack and lack of self esteem and that like that people tap into that as the drive and the motivation.

Vik Jindal [01:17:43]:
Oh yeah, you see that a lot.

Vision Battlesword [01:17:45]:
I mean what allows them to.

Vik Jindal [01:17:47]:
Well, I've read, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah. I read the Elon Musk biography by Isaac. Was it Walter Isaacson? And they, there was, there was this part of the book that you know, they talk about his like his inner wounds, but he's also done some amazing things. Right. And so there's this sort of question of whether he could have. And there's people who are citing the book who basically think that he couldn't have achieved those things had he not also had those demons.

Vision Battlesword [01:18:16]:
Right, right, right.

Vik Jindal [01:18:17]:
And I think like I, you know, I've talked to people about the same exact idea and I just refuse to believe that's true because that just stream seems like intrinsic design flawless.

Vision Battlesword [01:18:26]:
Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah. But, but there's something, there's something intuitively understandable about it. Yeah, right. And so I think it's important to, as we're continuing to flesh this idea out and sharpen it up that if we're going to replace the demons with angels.

Vik Jindal [01:18:45]:
Right.

Vision Battlesword [01:18:45]:
That's important for the angels to have their own growth oriented motivations. And like you said like okay, great, yeah, like the, the goal is not to, you know, build a golden pyramid to myself.

Vik Jindal [01:18:59]:
Right.

Vision Battlesword [01:19:00]:
But it's to go to that star.

Vik Jindal [01:19:01]:
Right.

Vision Battlesword [01:19:01]:
That I can see. We still have a goal. We still have motivation.

Vik Jindal [01:19:05]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:19:05]:
You know, to, to, to grow, to evolve, to. To explore, to improve our lives, you know, in a continuing way. Because there is that. You will also hear this meme floating around in the collective consciousness that I, I have at least heard it with regard to people who have like, resistance to exploring ceremony, more exploring personal development work or, you know, psychology, therapy, facilitation, whatever that is. It's like, no, don't take away my demons.

Vik Jindal [01:19:36]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:19:37]:
I need those. Like, I don't want to go to an ayahuasca ceremony and then like wake up the next day and realize I have to quit my job. And that actually kind of terrifies me. Right. That can happen. I'm not a lie.

Vik Jindal [01:19:48]:
Yeah, totally.

Vision Battlesword [01:19:49]:
It might be the best thing that ever happened to you as well, you know, but that is a fear that people have. And I think it's not completely irrational. But I agree with, I agree with you. I'm just playing, I'm playing angels advocate. Yeah. To say that I just wanted to, like, I want us to.

Vik Jindal [01:20:08]:
Yeah, let's acknowledge it.

Vision Battlesword [01:20:09]:
Let's acknowledge.

Vik Jindal [01:20:10]:
Yeah, yeah, let's acknowledge it. Because it's. It is, it is a thing.

Vision Battlesword [01:20:14]:
Yeah.

Vik Jindal [01:20:14]:
And I don't think that we fully explored it, but I think that the string that you're tugging at is like circling. There's.

Vision Battlesword [01:20:23]:
There's an emotional hook that people have in that.

Vik Jindal [01:20:26]:
Yes.

Vision Battlesword [01:20:26]:
And that's what I'm talking about.

Vik Jindal [01:20:27]:
Yes, that's exactly. And so like, there is something because people feel this motivation. But it's funny because the question is, have you ever felt like, have you ever been in a healthy integrity place and then thought about what you want to do? Maybe not. So maybe that's why our fascination exists because we don't have an alternative by which to hook onto and somebody. Like, this is what drives me, is my, my anger, my like, desire to, like, be better than all those people that, you know, I don't like or whatever, you know.

Vision Battlesword [01:21:01]:
Yeah, no, I, I'm 100 on your team with this in the sense that I, I think that positive, healthy, well integrated, good, feelings oriented motivation can be at least as powerful, if not more powerful than the corresponding negative, you know, motivations.

Vik Jindal [01:21:22]:
Yeah. I mean, and like, there's. It's funny, like, the. One of the things I struggle with and this is like where. Where like integrity gets like, really nuanced because, like, you may have, like, negative desires that are in you, but, like, do you. Are you even acknowledging the fact that they're negative? That's like, some level of integrity is actually associated with. That actually is like, I need to prove that I am the best because otherwise I feel inadequate. I have all this, like, you know, Elon Musk.

Vik Jindal [01:21:57]:
I have all this intelligence. But, like, I have. I need to do this to show people how intelligent I am to some degree. That would actually be like, you're acknowledging that you have this thing inside of you that, to me, is at least a healthier level of integrity. Is it fully integrated? I'm not sure. But, like, that's certainly an inner awareness that's occurring that is important, you know, And.

Vision Battlesword [01:22:21]:
And, you know, I just want it to be acknowledged that that is an absolutely powerful. It's incredibly powerful and can actually manifest things that are unmitigated. Good.

Vik Jindal [01:22:36]:
No, no question.

Vision Battlesword [01:22:38]:
No question. And you can say the same thing about art.

Vik Jindal [01:22:40]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:22:41]:
And many artists and where their motivation comes from.

Vik Jindal [01:22:43]:
Yeah, totally.

Vision Battlesword [01:22:44]:
Almost a cliche.

Vik Jindal [01:22:45]:
Yeah, totally.

Vision Battlesword [01:22:46]:
You know, that people express their wounding in and through their art. It's one way that they actually process and heal.

Vik Jindal [01:22:52]:
But that's like.

Vision Battlesword [01:22:53]:
That.

Vik Jindal [01:22:53]:
But. But that's not. That's being in integrity, isn't it? They're processing.

Vision Battlesword [01:22:58]:
I think it could go.

Vik Jindal [01:23:00]:
I guess. Yeah, I guess you're right. It could be. It could be that some artist is not in integrity about why they're feeling the way they're feeling, but then they want to be, let's say, the best artist, and then they produce amazing art. Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:23:13]:
In either case, all I'm saying is that there's a huge amount of art that we would call excellent that has brought a lot of joy, enjoyment, pleasure, richness to the world and to other people's experience that was born out of heavy trauma or 100 negative motivations of some form or other. Right. So that's all I'm saying is.

Vik Jindal [01:23:38]:
Right. It's not the absence of trauma that makes something just interesting. I understand what you're saying. I understand what you're saying. It's a very powerful force.

Vision Battlesword [01:23:49]:
I think, as I get more clear on what it is that I'm saying, I think what I'm trying to say is that positive, negative motivations can lead to positive negative outcomes.

Vik Jindal [01:24:00]:
100%.

Vision Battlesword [01:24:01]:
Right. Can go either way. Either way.

Vik Jindal [01:24:02]:
100%.

Vision Battlesword [01:24:02]:
That's all I'm saying.

Vik Jindal [01:24:03]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:24:04]:
It's interesting. But why not have the most positive motivations and the most positive outcomes that we can dream Up. I think that maybe it would be the problem.

Vik Jindal [01:24:15]:
Well, okay, so this is interesting because like where I guess where I get caught up is that like positive emotions and being in integrity are not necessarily the same thing. That's the part that I'm like getting caught up on is actually like the highest integrity is the one that's the most viscerally authentic. Like you're just like, you understand yourself super deep versus then that may not feel very positive.

Vision Battlesword [01:24:42]:
Right? Well, yeah, I mean, I think that's, that's a really good point because you could imagine a high integrity psychopath.

Vik Jindal [01:24:49]:
Totally. Or you could imagine somebody who's like really out of integrity but is like. Yeah, I guess that's sort of what you're saying is like is or like it's like super positive but is actually like completely out of integrity. Because they're not actually. It's like there's some underlying thing happening.

Vision Battlesword [01:25:06]:
Right. I think inherently the concept of integrity is not, is neutral in a way. Like Dr. Evil from Austin Powers movies has high integrity. He's not disguising what's going on here at all.

Vik Jindal [01:25:19]:
Hey, totally, totally. Right, exactly. Exactly. But you're, you're bringing up an interesting point around, around creating beautiful. Some people who have deep, deep trauma have created, you know, incredibly beautiful things. And by the way, like the more interesting maybe point is that some people have, have. Some have people with non acknowledged trauma. Like who.

Vik Jindal [01:25:45]:
People with unhealthy integrity have they created beautiful things. And probably that is true too, but maybe not, I don't know because like there's some aspect of unhealthy, like deep levels of unhealthy integrity that means that you're wearing masks and that usually means that you're doing something that you're supposed to be doing or making art that is supposed to look good. And that usually the type of art that does not resonate with people because there's like a lack of trueness happening.

Vision Battlesword [01:26:13]:
Yeah. Well, I think the piece of this that was interesting to me that we've been working with here for the last few minutes is just like this idea of the source of our motivation. Because that was what you originally brought up. It's like, okay, we've got this unhealthy integrity situation, you know, which creates these needs which we could define as like maybe not fully healthy needs. Like I'm trying to fill a sense of internal lack because I don't feel good enough or I don't feel complete or whatever. And I'm trying to find, I'm trying To externalize my internal problem, if you will, and find the source or the solution for that in the external world by acquiring wealth or fame or sexual conquests or power or whatever that is. But the only thing that I'm the. The piece that I noticed in all of that is that, yes, that's.

Vision Battlesword [01:27:05]:
I think we all can agree that that's true. And that's a part of where some unhealthy. What we might call unhealthy manifestations the world come from. But it's also just a. Just a source of energy. Yes, in a neutral sense. Yes, it's a source of energy. And it does also lean to a lot of, you know, it's.

Vision Battlesword [01:27:22]:
It's well known to be the motivating driver for a lot of people who've done like, just whatever, whatever unbelievably big, great, impressive things. A lot of people have been driven by those unhealthy.

Vik Jindal [01:27:36]:
I guess, like, the way to think about it is it creates a focus of energy that allows you to create big things.

Vision Battlesword [01:27:48]:
Yeah. So my question is, what does that look like? What is the opposite polarity of that look like?

Vik Jindal [01:27:55]:
Yeah, so I. That's. That's where I was going too. So, like, I believe that, like. Because like you had said before, like, yes, it creates a focus, right. But it's the wearing of masks and all this stuff is also actually hugely energy expending. And so there actually, even though you're creating this amazing thing that you have your focus on, that's for money, power, fame, whatever, it actually could be a lot less than you could otherwise create if you weren't in all these masks and everything. Right.

Vik Jindal [01:28:26]:
So you're kind of like holding yourself back, you know, it was like I was just watching Dr. Strange. Do you know that movie? Okay, yeah. So, like, where, you know, he's a surgeon, you know, Cumberbatch. Right. He's a. He's a surgeon. And then he loses the ability to use his hands because he's like in a car accident or something.

Vik Jindal [01:28:48]:
And then he, like, goes to the Far east and meets the one sorcerer. She says, I see you've had so much fear, like, throughout your career. And he says, it's what made me a great surgeon. And she's like, it's exactly what kept you from being great. You know, it just feels true to me, you know, that, like, actually, like, if you weren't expending all your energy on all this other, you know, about how you feel about yourself, and you could then channel your energy and you have to train yourself to do that. I think. I think it takes, like, or some. You have to, like, figure out what it is you're pointing at, you know? If it's not money, power, fame, what are you pointing at? Without expending that energy, what can you create, you know?

Vision Battlesword [01:29:38]:
Hmm.

Vik Jindal [01:29:40]:
That's kind of hopeful and beautiful, right?

Vision Battlesword [01:29:43]:
Yeah, I. I think I. I can now fully conceptualize your idea.

Vik Jindal [01:29:47]:
Yeah. Appreciate that.

Vision Battlesword [01:29:48]:
Feels like. Feels like good opening dialogue.

Vik Jindal [01:29:52]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:29:52]:
On this topic.

Vik Jindal [01:29:53]:
Yeah. Cool.

Vision Battlesword [01:29:54]:
Cool, man.

Vik Jindal [01:29:55]:
Amazing.

Vision Battlesword [01:29:55]:
That's really cool.

Vik Jindal [01:29:56]:
Yeah. Thank you. Appreciate it.

Vision Battlesword [01:29:57]:
Yeah.

Vik Jindal [01:29:57]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:29:58]:
I should take you home.

Vik Jindal [01:29:59]:
All right. Thanks, man.