Vision Battlesword [00:00:00]:
Howdy, Vik.

Vik Jindal [00:00:01]:
Hey, Vision.

Vision Battlesword [00:00:02]:
How are you feeling today?

Vik Jindal [00:00:03]:
I'm doing well. How about yourself?

Vision Battlesword [00:00:06]:
I'm doing excellently.

Vik Jindal [00:00:07]:
Yeah. Good.

Vision Battlesword [00:00:10]:
Well, thanks for joining me today for a Sacred Conversation.

Vik Jindal [00:00:14]:
Yeah, glad to be here.

Vision Battlesword [00:00:15]:
Excited to talk to you about this topic that we agreed on, which is open mindedness.

Vik Jindal [00:00:21]:
All right.

Vision Battlesword [00:00:21]:
Yeah, I think this is going to be really fun. But before we start, I'd like to just ask you to introduce yourself with my standard question of, who are you, Vik Jindal.

Vik Jindal [00:00:30]:
It's interesting. I've come up with this idea that really means a lot to me. So, my company's name is Perpetual holdings, and it's like a finance business, an investment business. And the reason I named it Perpetual holdings is, if you think about a business, a business is like a box, okay? And money comes into the box. And then if you're making an investment, money comes into the box, more money comes out of the box. And then if it's a good business, you take that money that you put that you got out of the box, and you put it right back into that same box, and more money comes out. And you keep doing that, and it just keeps growing and growing. And that's sort of like apple.

Vik Jindal [00:01:11]:
Like a business that is constantly reinvesting its cash flow, that it makes to just grow because it has so many investment opportunities. If you think about that, that was the original idea behind the name of that company. And then I thought to myself, though, like, aren't we all that box effectively? And whatever is coming into us, something is coming out of us, right? So my thought is, like, who I am is I am consciously aware of what I am taking in. And that is, like, love, all these different components. More is coming out. And then what I am doing is affecting others that I can then channel in some ways to make that grow over time. Love, abundance, whatever. I think of myself as that flywheel machine in and of itself, and that's how I want to conduct myself.

Vik Jindal [00:02:09]:
And in fact, we are always doing that at all times. And so the question is, what kind of flywheel are we in our lives? Like, what are we taking in? And then what is coming out? How does that affect others? And then what are we putting back into that system? And so that's how I think of myself.

Vision Battlesword [00:02:25]:
So you are a positive energy multiplication box.

Vik Jindal [00:02:31]:
Yeah, I guess you could say that. That's a good way of putting it.

Vision Battlesword [00:02:33]:
I like that. Yeah, that'd probably be a good one for parties.

Vik Jindal [00:02:36]:
Yeah, that's kind of fun.

Vision Battlesword [00:02:38]:
Well, as you know, I am Vision Battlesword, founder of Sacred Light, creator of Intentional Autonomous Relating and the host of Sacred Conversations. So tell me, what's on your mind when it comes to open mindedness?

Vik Jindal [00:02:56]:
I almost. I sort of think about open mindedness in this. I'll give you an idea. So think of our minds as a dark room that expands infinitely in all directions. And as we are learning things, it's like turning on a light in a part of the room. And so we learn this thing turns on the light in that part of the room in this infinitely dark room. And just like light does, it travels into the distance. And we're like, oh, there's something over there I want to examine.

Vik Jindal [00:03:28]:
And you go march over there and you go learn the thing that's over there and turn on the light in that part of the room. And over time in our lives, we're like turning on more and more of the light in this room. In fact, we'll never turn on the whole thing. And that's sort of what keeps us humble because in fact, there's all parts of this room that are dark. If you're close minded, it's like putting up walls in this room. And if you put up enough walls, it becomes like a box. And so as you turn on the light in this room, you sort of get to this place potentially where you're like, hey, I know everything. My whole room is lit up when in actuality the whole outside of the room is completely dark.

Vik Jindal [00:04:06]:
And so the question is what creates the wall? If I think about the wall, if you think about the light and there's a wall, there's a shadow. That's created in that shadow is where all your demons are hiding, that are holding up that wall to begin with. That's how I think about open mindedness, is when those walls come down, we become more open minded. And I think of the universe, or just the nature of evolution of us is sort of like grinding these closed minded walls down because basically the universe is constantly putting us up against our closed mindedness until those walls eventually come crashing down. And it's sort of like the universe is a rock tumbler where it's like constantly churning us through these painful moments that are driven by our closed mindedness. That eventually teaches us a lesson to bring that wall down.

Vision Battlesword [00:05:11]:
Wow, there's a lot there. Did you say a moment ago, did you say the nature of evolution or the nature of illusion? I wasn't sure.

Vik Jindal [00:05:19]:
No, evolution, like the nature of our, that the universe is sort of like. And this sort of goes into tower moments a little bit is that, like, basically, it's almost like a force of nature that drives us into these failures so that we can get to, like, pass through that. That wall, that barrier. So, like, we talked about the tower. Let's just talk about that for a second because it's a related concept. So. So let's say you have a relationship between two people. Let's say that relationship is fundamentally flawed.

Vik Jindal [00:05:58]:
Let's say that those two people hate each other, but instead of acknowledging the fact that they hate each other, they overlook that. They ignore it.

Vision Battlesword [00:06:06]:
So do you consider the idea that two people hate each other to be a flaw in the relationship?

Vik Jindal [00:06:11]:
No, the lack of communication about the fact that that is happening is the flaw.

Vision Battlesword [00:06:16]:
I see.

Vik Jindal [00:06:17]:
Right. So two people can despise each other, but if they're an honest relationship about that thing, they're not in denial about it, then that is actually, to some degree, a healthy relationship in the sense that they're an honest acknowledgement of that thing.

Vision Battlesword [00:06:36]:
Okay. Yeah. Not to take us on too much of a detour, because I know you've only just gotten started with your analogy, but I want to get clearer a little bit on this concept of a flaw, because behind that word, to me, it seems that there's a judgment of correctness of some sort. So how do we say that a relationship is either flawed or not flawed? What does that really mean?

Vik Jindal [00:07:04]:
That's an interesting question. I see what you're saying. Let's say that there's an issue in the relationship that they are not acknowledging.

Vision Battlesword [00:07:13]:
Okay.

Vik Jindal [00:07:14]:
So that's. That's kind of the point. Fundamental flaw in the sense that we don't want to be in a relationship with somebody that we hate. That's what I meant it as.

Vision Battlesword [00:07:21]:
Yeah. So maybe we could say the relationship has a tension or the relationship has a conflict.

Vik Jindal [00:07:27]:
Yes.

Vision Battlesword [00:07:27]:
That's not being acknowledged.

Vik Jindal [00:07:29]:
Yes.

Vision Battlesword [00:07:29]:
Something along those lines.

Vik Jindal [00:07:30]:
Yes. Okay. I like this. This is like visions precision thing. Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:07:34]:
This is what we do.

Vik Jindal [00:07:35]:
Yes. I love it. So it's good because it'll help me refine how I think about it. So, okay. There's a tension that goes unnamed. Okay. And it goes unnamed for a variety of reasons. Fear of acknowledgment of it, fear of the repercussions of that, acknowledging that tension.

Vik Jindal [00:07:57]:
Convenience, whatever. And so as a result of not acknowledging that tension, those two people decide to get married, they decide to buy a house, have kids. So they're sort of building on top of this sort of rocky foundation of this tension that is unnamed and so now that they've done those things, they now actually feel less incentivized, to be honest, about the tension, because they would have to. They may feel the need to unwind what they've created because the tension, to some degree, was ignored. And then they built this life together. And if they named the tension, they say, okay, we have to undo all that thing. And so what that then causes is those two people to continue, want to continue to go in the same direction, and they will continue to do that, in my view, until the system that they've created gets so precarious and so fragile and so tall, this tower that they built, that basically some little gust of wind can come and blow the whole thing down. And so the idea, and that's sort of like what the universe is doing, is it's sort of like a force of nature, where if you're not an acknowledgement of what is happening, you are creating these towers in your life, and then the gust of wind will come, because it's ultimately a fragility that is developed that then brings the tower down.

Vik Jindal [00:09:28]:
And then as the tower comes down, what is interesting about that is then the tower comes down. So then all the things that were at stake are no longer at stake, and that creates the environment for more honest communication. But the other side of that is that it is so chaotic when that happens, other things can pop up that are also equally ugly. Sort of like in the Weimar Republic, Hitler popped out of that. In the falling of a tower, beautiful things can happen or terrible things can happen. And so instead of doing that, instead of allowing that tower to fall by its own weight, the alternative is to acknowledge the tension that is there, have the honest communication. And then so now you're in a shared reality about what is happening. And then those two people can decide what they want to do with this tower.

Vik Jindal [00:10:21]:
Do they say, hey, we want to go our separate ways, and we dismantle the tower before it gets too big? Yes, we dont love each other, but we love our kids. And so we decide to effectively cohabitate and reinforce the tower in some way and build a life that is more stable. But theyre in honest relationship with that. And so what's interesting about going back to the open mindedness idea is that when you're closed minded, you're effectively building a tower. That closed minded is sort of these unacknowledged truths that are happening. And so the way to bring down the wall is either acknowledge the tension that is there and resolve it, or let it fall of its own demise, and then hopefully, that allows you to go through it.

Vision Battlesword [00:11:07]:
Well, once again, there's a lot there. Yeah. I want to bring the conversation back to open mindedness more directly pretty soon, but I also want to go into this tower metaphor a little bit and just kind of reflect on that, if that's okay.

Vik Jindal [00:11:24]:
Yeah, for sure. It's, like, one of my favorites.

Vision Battlesword [00:11:26]:
So, yeah, I think it's really juicy. To me, it reminds me of so many things in my relationship system. Iar in particular, to me, I relate the building of a tower, as you call it, to the idea of entanglement in a relationship, which is just any time that you're mixing your life together with someone else in a way that you're sort of investing energy into creating a situation or a state of affairs in your lives that's going to now take energy to undo that or to disentangle.

Vik Jindal [00:12:06]:
I mean, I think so. I mean, because, like, I haven't read iar in a bit, but when I remember when I read it, it basically felt to me like a structure in which you can acknowledge truth in the relationship. And so that is the means by which you stabilize the tower. And so what you're doing is actually like, re. You're solidifying the tower and then saying, okay, this is the type of tower that we're building. Right. That is actually structured. It's not the tower itself that is the problem.

Vik Jindal [00:12:42]:
It is the tower on a rocky foundation that is the issue. And so.

Vision Battlesword [00:12:47]:
Or at any level of the tower, there could be a structural problem.

Vik Jindal [00:12:51]:
Totally.

Vision Battlesword [00:12:52]:
Maybe the foundation is great, but we got some kind of tower doesn't have.

Vik Jindal [00:12:56]:
To come all the way down or whatever. Right. But also, towers, when they come down, could also destroy the parts that are good. Right. Because you could build really high on something that is a stable foundation, but you start building this fragile thing that goes really far in the distance, and the tumultuousness of that coming down is so painful that it destroys the actual good foundation that was there. Like, for example, a good friendship that turns into, let's say, a sexual relationship that doesn't feel like it's the healthiest because there's some lack of honesty of what's happening. And that as that tower comes down, because that part wasn't discussed, it also destroys the friendship in the process. Right?

Vision Battlesword [00:13:39]:
Mm hmm.

Vik Jindal [00:13:41]:
One of the interesting things that you said that I've been kind of thinking through this idea a little bit. I was talking with a friend. It's sort of like this idea of how you're saying, that you sort of, like, build on top of this, like, this drive to.

Vision Battlesword [00:13:57]:
Yeah, let me. Let me speak it maybe with a little bit more clarity.

Vik Jindal [00:14:00]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:14:00]:
There's a fallacy that we seem to. You know, many people seem to pick up somewhere along the line that you can somehow fix a faulty foundation in a relationship by building a greater structure on top of it.

Vik Jindal [00:14:15]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:14:16]:
There's, like, a fallacy there that's like. Well, the problem is our tower is just not tall enough.

Vik Jindal [00:14:21]:
Yeah, yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:14:22]:
We got to build three more floors to the tower, and then everything will be okay. And then. Oh, it's still not okay. Well, once again, need a bigger tower. Totally. Like, that's. That's the bigger is better mentality. Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:14:33]:
Maybe. Maybe another way of looking at it is. Is more commitment can solve, let's say, incompatibility.

Vik Jindal [00:14:42]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:14:42]:
Fundamental incompatibility.

Vik Jindal [00:14:44]:
That's so interesting. I was just talking to a friend of mine fairly recently, and we were talking about the box and the open mindedness and everything like that. Did you ever read the untethered soul? It's by Michael Singer. It's a very good book. But one of the ideas he has in it, which is sort of analogous. Not exactly, but kind of analogous to this open mindedness box. So he basically says, okay, imagine your life is like, your senses are the way that you experience the world around you. That then is transposed into energy in your body.

Vik Jindal [00:15:25]:
Okay, which sort of feels actually, factually accurate. Right? So, like, how you. The external world, then is internalized. And so, as you're driving down the road, let's say you're seeing cars, you're seeing houses. Those are all passing through you. That, like, that. The vibration of that, like, the car that you see, the house that you see, it doesn't matter, right? You're just passing by the road, and most of this stuff does not affect you in any way. And then you see the car model of the ex girlfriend in high school broke your heart, and you were having a great day.

Vik Jindal [00:15:56]:
But the signature. The energy signature of that reminds you of this wound that you have deep inside. And now you're triggered, and you feel terrible, okay? And so basically what he says is that we don't like feeling that way. We don't like feeling triggered. So we create this invisible box around us that basically limits us so that we don't actually trigger ourselves. So we, like, create, like, this sort of invisible. We live a life, like, in this box that we've now created that, like, stays in this safe zone of not feeling triggered, and we just, like, sort of live in that. It's like this invisible cage that we've now put ourselves in.

Vik Jindal [00:16:39]:
And so to free ourselves from the box, it's sort of like the invisible dog fence. If you have an invisible dog fence and you have a dog with a shock collar, the way you get free is you move towards the invisible dog fence, you feel the shock, you experience it, you're with the trigger, and then you go through it, and then you're free. Right. And my friend was saying, and I think this is analogous to what you're saying, is that there is some draw that we actually have to that wall, that trigger. Like, we have a tendency to want to go towards this thing that triggers us even though we know it triggers us. It's almost like your soul wants to address the problem to some degree. And so you building a tower on top of this flawed system, your desire to do that, maybe because there is this inherent desire to see it come crashing down so that you are free of that problem.

Vision Battlesword [00:17:36]:
Hmm, maybe. Well, I can see how all of this relates back to open mindedness. You know, all three of these different analogies that we have kind of spread out on the table.

Vik Jindal [00:17:46]:
Now.

Vision Battlesword [00:17:47]:
We've got the metaphor of the dark room, where we can create light to illuminate different parts of our own consciousness. And we can also put up walls or partitions that block that light to create an artificial container that we can't see beyond, even though there's lots and lots and lots of new territory out there. But we may believe ourselves to be fully illuminated, but it's only because we're within the bounds of our own limitations, our own self created limitations. Then we've got the metaphor of the tower, which is a different kind of, let's say, a way of looking at closed mindedness, closed minded in the sense that we continue to build more and more levels or floors of a tower, taller and taller, because we're sort of trying to bury things that we don't want to look at or things that we don't want to address, or maybe not intentionally doing that, but at a minimum, we are doing that. And there are things down there that we don't want to address. And we try to live in the upper floors of this tower without acknowledging the fact that this overall structure is not sound and could lead to some sort of chaotic deconstruction. And then we've also got a metaphor of the invisible dog fence, which is sort of like a boundary that we create for ourself to try to stay within so that we can feel safe. But it also creates a container that creates a limitation of our own consciousness, awareness, or experience.

Vision Battlesword [00:19:23]:
Even though the truth is that if we were to cross that boundary, we'd only actually receive a momentary shock. It's not an actual barrier that prevents us from going anywhere that we want to go. It's again, something that we choose to treat as if it's a true boundary or a physical obstacle. To me, the phrase open mindedness or open minded, the first thing that comes to mind, haha, for me about that phrase, is that it's about receptivity to new ideas. Does that make sense to you in terms of how you think people generally think of it, what open mindedness means? Yeah, receptivity to new ideas.

Vik Jindal [00:20:05]:
I definitely agree with that.

Vision Battlesword [00:20:06]:
But it's interesting, I like kind of going back to your first metaphor, there's something pleasing for me in that visualization, and I'm a very visual person, I think like sounds like you are about how that reflects to open mindedness, because it's a very literal physical equivalence to openness. Like if we imagine our mind again as a space, but we create barriers that literally close us in the smaller than the actual landscape that's available to us. Those words make sense in terms of closed versus open. A friend of mine a while ago told me about an epiphany that he had about awareness. And he said it occurred to him that awareness is the light of our being. It's literally what it is. It is that which illuminates the universe, and it's only where we shine our own light is all that we can see or experience. So the expansion of awareness is literally the expansion, and I mean that literally, not figuratively, is the expansion of our sphere of illumination.

Vision Battlesword [00:21:29]:
What do you think about that?

Vik Jindal [00:21:31]:
Well, yeah, I'm just trying, I want to go through my thought process on awareness a little bit so that I can kind of meet you where you are on it, and I might ask you some questions a little bit as we go. Okay, so awareness. Awareness is a very interesting thing. The thing that's coming to mind is actually this idea that I've been playing with, and I don't know. I'd love to play with this idea with you because it's sort of. I don't know if it's related or not, but it's sort of what's coming to mind is that we have like traumas that perpetuate. Everyone has traumas, and then we often perpetuate those traumas that we've experienced onto others in some way, like, hurt people. Hurt people.

Vik Jindal [00:22:13]:
You heard that idea. The question is, like, do we have responsibility if we're unaware that that's what's happening to us. Right. And so then once you gain awareness, then the responsibility is now yours to actually change. And our society, my friend pointed out as we were talking about this is our society, is actually structured around an assumption of awareness that, like, for example, our legal system is based on an assumption of awareness that somebody who had, let's say, a terrible upbringing, that creates trauma within them, that causes them to commit crime or hurt other people, they are not aware that the trauma that they've experienced is driving their behavior. And so the awareness of them starts to create the responsibility, whereas. And it's a gray zone. Right.

Vision Battlesword [00:23:06]:
Well, at a minimum, ignorance of the law, they say, is not a defense. So that's just a very nuts and bolts validation of what you're saying, that our society is based on the idea that lack of awareness is not an excuse for lack of responsibility.

Vik Jindal [00:23:24]:
Right. And running a society, I can understand why that would be the case. I'm saying, like, more in a spiritual sense. Now, when you gain the awareness is when you have the responsibility. So back to your question of the awareness and the light, and sort of going back to sort of combining a couple of different metaphors, et cetera. So going back to the metaphor of the dark room that expands infinitely in all directions, and we have these walls up, you're in a part of the room that has light, and you think that's the end of the room. Once you become aware of the thing that's on the other side of the wall now you're like seeing, oh, there's a wall here.

Vision Battlesword [00:24:07]:
Or maybe you're hearing something banging on the other side.

Vik Jindal [00:24:10]:
Right.

Vision Battlesword [00:24:10]:
Like, wait a second. Yeah, there's gotta be more room over there.

Vik Jindal [00:24:13]:
Exactly. So now your close mindedness is. Has a crack in it, right? And so then you're like, okay, there's something happening on the other side of this wall that I am now aware is happening and driving the fact that you're now aware of the closed mindedness that you have. And so then what are you going to do about that awareness?

Vision Battlesword [00:24:36]:
Right.

Vik Jindal [00:24:36]:
That's the choice that now becomes your responsibility.

Vision Battlesword [00:24:39]:
Yeah. And some people would choose never to investigate what's on the other side of the flight. Some people would choose to pretend that they didn't hear the knocking. Or even if they did hear it, they would still make a choice to say, you know, I don't want to know what's over there. I'm perfectly happy, totally, in this little room with all the lights on.

Vik Jindal [00:24:59]:
Totally.

Vision Battlesword [00:24:59]:
But do you think that people actually have a responsibility to go and investigate? Do you feel that people have an obligation in the sense that, hey, once I know that there's more room out there, it's kind of my duty to explore it. It's kind of my duty to become as aware as I can be and not stay within these bounds or confines of what could create a more limited existence for myself or maybe even create harm for others.

Vik Jindal [00:25:26]:
That's a really tough question. I personally feel responsibility. I know that. To do that, but I don't know that I always felt that way, because, know, let's say you're in a deeply wounded state, super closed minded person, and you hear something on the other side of the wall, or you feel that there's something on the other side of the wall, or you click through and you, like, peer through, and there's, you know, area of the. Of this dark room. The. The issue that then is created is this wall kind of represents a tower that you've built. Okay? This closed mindedness is this tower that you've built in your life.

Vik Jindal [00:26:05]:
This is where the analogy is kind of mixed together. So, like, that's what the tower. The tower represents, is this. You've created a worldview, and you have built a life around that worldview that is, like, reinforcing that closed mindedness. And when you now understand that that worldview has a fundamental flaw, like, some tension, okay, for lack of a better word, then now you're sort of at this place where you're like, okay, I've built this tower. I see something that is fundamentally wrong with it, and what am I going to do about that? And I think to some degree, that is hard to do for somebody who doesn't know how to deal with that sudden, like, doesn't.

Vision Battlesword [00:26:52]:
Well, it's almost like an existential crisis, right?

Vik Jindal [00:26:54]:
Yeah, that's right. And so what's interesting about that is that's where kind of the force of nature comes in. So, like, you will continue to build that tower even with that awareness now that you're choosing not to change your worldview. So you continue to build a tower, but the tower, if it's on a structurally weak foundation, will eventually fall. That's the sort of force of nature that is ultimately there. If that tension exists, that tower will eventually come down, and that will cause you to reevaluate your worldview. And so the awareness is like, we all have, like, triggers. We all have tensions in our lives that we are not even aware of some closed mindedness that we have.

Vik Jindal [00:27:36]:
If you are, let's say, a highly actualized person and, you know, kind of in tune with, like, understanding what's happening. So when you become aware, you look at it, you fix that. You. You bring down that wall because you know how to do that. If you don't know how to do that, you continue to build this tower until it comes down, and then you become aware of what. What those, like, walls are. Does that make sense?

Vision Battlesword [00:28:00]:
Yes. I'm following you. Although I wish that we could pick a metaphor, either towers or walls, and kind of go with it. Yeah, I'm. For me, in my mind, the way I'm visualizing things, the walls make a lot of sense.

Vik Jindal [00:28:16]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:28:17]:
If we could just flesh this metaphor out, like, really flesh it out and, like, kind of. Okay, let's, like, explore this whole idea. I love the dark room. And so what I'm imagining is, when we're born, we come into this body, into this life, and we've got the very, very, very dark but infinitely large space of our potential consciousness. Let's just say potential awareness. And then as we go through life, we start putting up these walls to create a little home for ourselves to live in. In our mind. Right.

Vision Battlesword [00:28:55]:
And so I'm imagining that. Okay. Yeah. At first, the walls are very thin and very rudimentary, like, you know, like a very, very cheap theater set.

Vik Jindal [00:29:04]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:29:04]:
You know, we got flats. It's two by fours.

Vik Jindal [00:29:06]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:29:07]:
Maybe some paper over top just to make a look of a facade.

Vik Jindal [00:29:10]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:29:11]:
A room. But then over time, as we live in this room more and more, we want to make it more and more comfortable.

Vik Jindal [00:29:16]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:29:17]:
And so we make those walls more and more solid. You know, maybe now we put up some drywall or some plywood, and we wallpaper. We paint and we put up decorations. And maybe we even start to build, like, some brick walls, because, hey, this, you know, this is really feeling like home. Like, this is really a kind of a permanent place for me to stay. There's no reason, you know, not to really make this all very solid and stable. But I think what also is happening now, to kind of bring in a little thread from the tower analogy, is that sometimes we're actually building flaws or parts of our experience which are not necessarily the most functional, healthy, joyful. Those end up getting built into some of these walls that we create for ourselves as well.

Vision Battlesword [00:30:06]:
And all of the different features of our little, you know, a little room within our larger room that we choose to inhabit, which we may call that our belief system. Then maybe in this room, we also build windows and doors. Maybe we actually can see out into the greater area to some degree, but we just kind of choose not to go out there. And also, from time to time, maybe people or ideas or new information or beliefs may come knocking on our doors, and we can choose to let them in and entertain them. And maybe they even give us some ideas for ways that we could add on additions to our house. Maybe we'll, at some point in our life, we do decide to knock out an entire wall. Like, you know what? I actually. I know that there's a big, big, beautiful area over there that I could live in and feel very comfortable, and I'll knock out this wall, and I'll create a new addition onto my house.

Vision Battlesword [00:31:02]:
But then also from time to time, these ideas come knocking on our doors. Or maybe we become actually very shut in. Maybe we pull the blinds on our windows with blackout curtains and we lock our doors, and no new ideas need to come in here. I'm set. I'm good to go. I don't need to expand this house. You know, maybe I'll just continue decorating in here. That's kind of the way I'm seeing it.

Vision Battlesword [00:31:26]:
But those fundamental flaws that could get built into our house because of those points in time when we had those experiences, at that moment when we were building that particular part, that's what you're saying. Those things can actually come crashing down with or without our consent. Or maybe we could even have some greater catastrophe that really starts to kind of bring our whole belief system coming crashing down around us.

Vik Jindal [00:31:57]:
Yeah, I mean, I guess I sort of look at it. I'm actually. You're making me realize why the tower and the dark room are kind of confusing analogies. Because, like, in the dark room analogy, all the walls are wrong. Oh, they're all limitations. They're all expressions of closed mindedness. And so when you come up on a wall, it's sort of like it's driven there by a trauma of some kind or some other thing that is almost forcing you to not see the other side, to not see the other side of the wall. And then there may be something that peeks through that, some idea or some sudden awareness that comes to your mind that suddenly changes your perception, and you're like, oh, wow, I am closed minded.

Vik Jindal [00:32:46]:
Like, about this. I can give you an example, actually. My own life before I went to business school, I read Ayn Rand, who you're, I think, a fan of. Right? And I read Atlas Shark to, like, change my life, you know? And I became, like, super fiscally conservative socially. I was always liberal, but fiscally conservative, like, very fiscally conservative. And that sort of transposed into sort of, like, republican kind of political ideology. And, like, I was always good at finance, et cetera, so I could make financial arguments that were, like, effective, winning arguments, but I was incredibly close minded about the other side of the equation. And I remember when Obama was being elected, reelected or when he was running for reelection against Mitt Romney.

Vik Jindal [00:33:40]:
I remember watching, like, the financial news. Some person was saying that, like, Obama shouldn't be reelected. Look, he look at all the job losses that occurred during his president, the early part of his presidency. And I remember, like, having this awareness of the intellectual dishonesty associated with that because, like, yes, that is true, but he also caught an economic bomb while it was going off. And I remember thinking how I made similar arguments that were intellectually dishonest in order to further my worldview. And suddenly I became aware of the intellectual dishonesty with which arguments like that are being made. And I realized I was closed minded. And so then I sort of did this examination of, like, actually Obama's views or whatever.

Vik Jindal [00:34:28]:
Right? This isn't a political kind of conversation, but, like, and seeing the reasonableness of a lot of his positions and sort of the reasonableness of the man. And again, not a political conversation, but sort of softened my view about politics in many ways. That allowed me to see disparate points of view that were much more open to all sorts of viewpoints. And then, like, now my political philosophy has kind of, like, just completely opened up as a result of that wall coming down. That allows me to, like, I have, I don't actually think I have any political label, if anything, you know, whatever, it doesn't even matter. But, like, the point is that allows me to see arguments that people have on all sides when they're in a reasonable place. Sometimes you're, the people are so close minded, et cetera. But, like, just taking components of all the different viewpoints and sort of saying, you know, there's something true about what they're saying.

Vik Jindal [00:35:26]:
There's something true about what they're saying. There's something true about what this person is saying. Here's where they're getting caught up in their demon a little bit. But there's some truth here. There's some truth there. There's some truth here. And you can kind of, that allows that open mindedness that was created by that awareness that I chose to engage in allowed for me to now go much further in my viewpoints about the world and politics writ large. Does that make sense?

Vision Battlesword [00:35:54]:
Yeah. Yeah, that does. And it's helpful to. You're helping me to understand what the room metaphor means to you and how you see it. And so it's interesting to me to hear you say that the way you look at it, every wall is an obstacle to open mindedness, or every wall is some aspect of closed mindedness. So would you kind of imagine, like, the perfectly open minded person has a mental room with no walls whatsoever?

Vik Jindal [00:36:25]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:36:25]:
Okay. And then it's just a matter of how far and in what direction you want to shine your light.

Vik Jindal [00:36:30]:
Totally.

Vision Battlesword [00:36:31]:
I see. And then also, it seems like there's an element that you brought up a phrase of intellectual dishonesty, which really resonates for me in terms of how I experience people as closed minded. Or do I? I'm not sure if that's necessarily open.

Vik Jindal [00:36:49]:
Or closed intellectual dishonesty.

Vision Battlesword [00:36:51]:
I guess it depends on if you're being intell. I guess it depends on your motivation for being intellectually dishonest. Like, if you're being intellectually dishonest to protect your own worldview or your own belief system from having to actually look at the possibility that another view has some element of truth to it or is valid, then that would be closed minded.

Vik Jindal [00:37:13]:
Yeah, I mean, it depends on the awareness.

Vision Battlesword [00:37:15]:
Yeah.

Vik Jindal [00:37:16]:
So, like, once I became aware, I became fully, like, aware of the other side. Like that. I, like, suddenly I was like, oh, that argument is intellectually dishonest. And it created an awareness within me that I was making similarly intellectually dishonest arguments without the awareness that I was making intellectually dishonest arguments.

Vision Battlesword [00:37:39]:
Or, well, what does that mean, to be intellectually dishonest in the way that you're using the phrase choosing?

Vik Jindal [00:37:46]:
Well, the awareness is creating a choice, I guess, to some degree. Like, my worldview is right, and therefore I will create whatever argument I need to, to win.

Vision Battlesword [00:37:58]:
Right.

Vik Jindal [00:37:59]:
Because that, to prove and fortify my worldview.

Vision Battlesword [00:38:02]:
So it's sort of like a begging the question fallacy, essentially, or the self serving bias.

Vik Jindal [00:38:10]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:38:11]:
Okay. So, yeah, that's helpful for me because I understand the word honesty in a very specific way. So I see what you mean now, though. What it means is you take your own worldview as a given, and then you fit the facts or you fit the arguments to ensure that that's what's being proved.

Vik Jindal [00:38:31]:
Yeah. And I think when you don't have awareness, your mind cherry picks the things that actually fit and doesn't see the things that don't fit is actually like what's happening. It's almost like they say if you go into a room and you're close your eyes, walk out of the room, it's like, was there any blue in there? You have no idea. But if you said, go in there and look for blue, you would see blue all over the place. You know what I mean? When you're closed minded, your mind tends to see what it is that you want to see that will reinforce that wall. And then once you pierce through, then suddenly that awareness becomes evident that that's what you're doing. And suddenly you start to see all the other things that you weren't seeing.

Vision Battlesword [00:39:20]:
Okay. Yeah. There's a few other words that are coming up in relation to that. For me. I used to have a phrase that I used a lot, which was intellectually rigorous, which I think is the same thing as what you mean by when you say intellectually honest. To me, honesty is very specific to truth versus deception. So I do think there are people who are, in fact, intellectually dishonest, who make a conscious choice, agreed to actually misrepresent reality facts 100% for their other self interest, for whatever self interest.

Vik Jindal [00:39:59]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:40:00]:
But then I think there's a lot more people, to your point, who are more like not intellectually rigorous in the sense of being, well, let's just say, flip that around and say, are intellectually lazy in the sense of finding the path of least resistance, cherry picking through the available information or evidence to get to their predefined conclusion or their assumed worldview. And are just not interested in or would rather not entertain any inconvenient facts or ideas that would challenge them, which I think is kind of like what you're talking about in the darkened room. Of sort of like a person who maybe is going about the room. And when they encounter an obstacle, rather than looking, you know, going to see well, what's on the other side of that obstacle, they just turn around and go the other way. Because it's just easier.

Vik Jindal [00:40:56]:
Yeah, totally. And this is sort of the analogy. A little bit back to the tower analogy is that, like, when you have this firm lack of desire to have that intellectual rigorousness, this intellectual honesty, resolving the tension by being honest about what's happening, you're building a life around that view. So, like, you know, this happens in politics all the time. It happens in all kinds of different things. Like, if you were like a. I don't know, I was like a massive Trump supporter or something like that. And you're all over the Internet sort of like, Trump this, Trump that, and he does something that you think is, like, morally wrong.

Vik Jindal [00:41:36]:
It's hard to. You've created a Persona, your friends, et cetera, around that worldview. And so now to actually sort of be on the other side of that and say, wow, this guy's not a good guy.

Vision Battlesword [00:41:52]:
Yeah. It's easier to twist a fact in such a way that you can shoehorn it into your worldview or apologize for it or hand wave it away than it is to actually re examine your whole philosophy of whatever it is and say, wow, this is maybe different or more complex than what I've become emotionally or in various ways invested in. Yes, there's now a lot at stake. There's now a lot at stake. That's a great way of putting it.

Vik Jindal [00:42:24]:
And so what's really interesting about that is one of the telltale signs really, is sort of just, I think, I don't have any proof of this, but I think it's a kind of an interesting observation, is that the more countervailing arguments that you're choosing to ignore as you, like, live your life, and you're like, I'm not gonna see this. I'm not gonna see that he's committed adultery. He's done this. You have to go to more and more absurdity in order to justify your current position.

Vision Battlesword [00:43:00]:
Right.

Vik Jindal [00:43:00]:
And that's why I think you see these people with QAnon and all this other stuff is that they have to now say that he's like, Jesus Christ and John F. Kennedy Junior's coming. You know, it's like you have to, like, you know, you have to go to more absurd. It just becomes the tower. Like, the thing that you're building becomes more and more absurd and more fragile until eventually it just comes crashing down.

Vision Battlesword [00:43:23]:
Well, it's interesting that you bring that up, the absurdity point, because some information that I've been encountering recently suggests that that is how you create a cult. That's how you create a cultish belief system. It actually has to push the boundaries of belief into the realm of absurdity, which flips a switch in your brain at some point where you actually just give up. Your brain actually just gives up on facts and logic and thinking things through critical thinking in general. And it's just like, well, things are beyond my comprehension. My only choice is to accept this on faith. But you can see evidence of that. Not just in the Trump phenomenon, you can see evidence of that.

Vik Jindal [00:44:14]:
Yeah, totally.

Vision Battlesword [00:44:15]:
All across the political spectrum, for sure. 100% as well as in a lot of cases.

Vik Jindal [00:44:19]:
And I didn't mean to attack whatever. He's sort of an obvious one.

Vision Battlesword [00:44:23]:
I'm not picking it up that way. I'm just pointing out, I'm just pointing out that that's happening a lot right now.

Vik Jindal [00:44:30]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:44:30]:
And it's kind of frightening, but that is almost a kind of closed mindedness that's sort of taken to. Well, it's ad absurdum. Right. It's taken to the maximum extreme of where there's really nothing you couldn't say to a person who's in that state.

Vik Jindal [00:44:49]:
Yes.

Vision Battlesword [00:44:50]:
They're just gone. They're truly in the completely closed box.

Vik Jindal [00:44:53]:
Yes. And you see this actually, it's kind of interesting about this. Again, I'm in finance, and you see this phenomenon in markets, actually, you see this phenomenon in all kinds of places, like markets, like in the early two thousands, like pets.com had no revenue and was worth billions of dollars, and people turned off their brains that the Internet was just going to be like this. It didn't matter. Or you see this in crypto a lot of times, again, not attacking any crypto users or anything like that.

Vision Battlesword [00:45:22]:
But this is a safe space.

Vik Jindal [00:45:23]:
We're not attacking anyone.

Vision Battlesword [00:45:25]:
We're just exploring it.

Vik Jindal [00:45:26]:
Yeah, but some of it is just absurd and stupid or pillaged that way. I guess that was a little bit of judgment, but some of it is absurd, like dogecoin. And it was a joke. It was a joke that somebody created, and now it has billions of dollars of value or whatever.

Vision Battlesword [00:45:42]:
I think Doge is still going to.

Vik Jindal [00:45:44]:
Fair answer. It's actually when people get in that state that there are then also people who can take advantage of that as well, you know?

Vision Battlesword [00:45:54]:
And so that's what's happening. I mean, we're, so many people are getting hijacked. I mean, it's the confidence game scheme.

Vik Jindal [00:46:03]:
Totally.

Vision Battlesword [00:46:04]:
It's any scam, it's any racket.

Vik Jindal [00:46:07]:
And look, I would argue that, like, our society is like, in a massive tower, absurdity reigned supreme, right? Donald Trump was president of the United States. Now we have Donald Trump running against Joe Biden, who is pretty senile as well. And there's this absurdity that's reigning supreme in our society. And I would argue that if our society was in this place where we were having honest conversations with one another, even on the left, the opportunity, or on the right, or we were just having honest conversations about how to solve real problems in a way that reflected open mindedness, like an opportunity for Donald Trump to rise would never have existed to begin with. It is as a result of the brokenness of our existing system that that opportunity arose to create somebody like that.

Vision Battlesword [00:46:59]:
Well, I want to put a point on what do we mean by the brokenness of the system? Because I think, as it pertains to our conversation here, the brokenness and the system that we're referring to really is a system of critical thinking.

Vik Jindal [00:47:14]:
Yes.

Vision Battlesword [00:47:15]:
It's not about a political system or an economic system. It's any of these things. It's about the level to which people are taught and or motivated to actually engage in earnest truth seeking.

Vik Jindal [00:47:30]:
Yes.

Vision Battlesword [00:47:30]:
A moment ago, I said there's a few different words coming up for me, and I went into intellectual rigor. But the other words that are coming up for me, which, of course, are very, very core to my belief system and my value system, are sincerity and earnestness. And it seems to me that that's really. And curiosity, for that matter, it seems to me that that's really the antidote to closed mindedness, in the sense of if we're wandering around the dark room, bumping into walls, first of all, it's the sincerity. It's the self honesty to acknowledge that that's actually happening, first and foremost. But secondly, it's the earnestness. And earnestness, to me, is another way of saying intellectual honesty. It really all comes back to honesty.

Vision Battlesword [00:48:20]:
I mean, you hit on it right at the very beginning of the conversation with Iar, you said, hey, it seems to me that really, one of the fundamental principles of Iarae that helps people in relationships is, what if we, at the very beginning of this, make an agreement that what we're most interested in here is truth.

Vik Jindal [00:48:38]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:48:39]:
That whatever it is that's down there in the bottom levels of the tower, whatever it is, you know, whatever's in the closet, whatever's buried in the backyard, whatever it is, we actually want to know what it is. We don't want to pretend that it's not there. We don't want to pretend that it's something that it isn't, and then we just want to deal with it. And to me, that's where sincerity, earnestness and truth seeking, which is another way of saying curiosity to know what's real.

Vik Jindal [00:49:05]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:49:06]:
That's the opposite of the broken system.

Vik Jindal [00:49:09]:
Yeah. And so it's interesting, like, so one of the things I do is I talk to college groups of college students at different universities about integrity in finance, because these students are going out into the world and sort of like, the question is, like, how do they act with integrity? Because our system lacks integrity right now in a lot of ways. And I think that's a reflection of the spiritual crisis that we're kind of sort of talking about right now. It's sort of like this idea. Like, the reason we have such a hard time taking these towers down is we think that the failure of something, like the bringing down of something, reflects something negatively about ourselves. Like, if something's at stake and we don't want to bring it down, it's because it'll reflect negatively on us. And so what I encourage these students to do is really tap into who they are within themselves. Like, how do they feel about themselves? Because if you don't feel good about yourself, then you're gonna look for something outside of yourself to gain validation.

Vik Jindal [00:50:15]:
And so if that is, let's say, money will stand 10ft tall. You want to get money to stand 10ft tall on your wallet so you feel better about yourself. I was in that state of mind before I did all this personal work. To some degree, I felt some lack of feeling like enough, and therefore I wanted to do really well in finance in order to feel better about who I am. And if you're in a state of lack, internal state of lack about who you are, then you will try to grab something outside of yourself. And if there's something outside of yourself that you believe will make you feel better about yourself, there is no limit to what you will do to get that thing. It suddenly becomes your highest aspiration. And so having the marriage that looks good or the job that looks good, or the thing that when you're being intellectually honest with yourself doesn't feel all that good, but looks good, so that you start to, like, grab these things outside of yourself to, like, make you feel better about kind of your state, that's when you get into trouble.

Vik Jindal [00:51:24]:
And so. And you start to build these towers, in my view, that are, like, really unsound. I think it all comes down to how you feel about yourself. And then from there, how you then, like, once you do that work, then how you actually will interact with all that stuff will be more intellectually honest, because it's not a reflection how other people perceive your opinion or something won't change how you feel about yourself, you know?

Vision Battlesword [00:51:50]:
Yeah, that's a really good point. And there's something that you said earlier, which is that there's stakes. So whatever the stakes are to embracing that intellectual honesty, even if it might turn out that I discovered I was wrong.

Vik Jindal [00:52:08]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:52:08]:
Or.

Vik Jindal [00:52:09]:
Yeah. The ability to say I was wrong.

Vision Battlesword [00:52:12]:
Or, you know, and that's the way a lot of people perceive it. And maybe you could even have, like, a more evolved and less judgmental. I have changed my mind.

Vik Jindal [00:52:20]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:52:20]:
I think differently now than I did then.

Vik Jindal [00:52:23]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:52:23]:
Whatever it is that you want to look at, that there are actual, real world consequences that people are afraid of.

Vik Jindal [00:52:29]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:52:29]:
In terms of acknowledging that. And those consequences can be real. They can be more than just emotional experiences or a reflection on my self image. It could be. Yeah. Our tower actually does need to come down, and this marriage does need to end, or this partnership does need to be dissolved. I do need to leave this job, whatever those actual consequences are of getting real with yourself and discovering some new things that you find to be true.

Vik Jindal [00:53:07]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:53:07]:
That's what people are afraid of. That's why they move away from those walls.

Vik Jindal [00:53:11]:
Yeah. So, like, I know you like Daniel Quinn.

Vision Battlesword [00:53:14]:
Yeah.

Vik Jindal [00:53:15]:
You know, so in Ishmael, the talking gorilla is talking to this man. Explain the laws of nature to this man. As you know, I'm just informing your listeners as well. And in this book, this talking gorilla is talking to this man, explaining the laws of nature. And one of the things he says is, like, I forget the exact reflection, but it was basically like, imagine a pride of lions, and there's some gazelles, and they go. And they attack the gazelles to bring down the gazelle. The other gazelles are now no longer afraid. And the reason is because the lions are satiated.

Vik Jindal [00:53:55]:
They are now. They got the gazelle that they needed to feel fed, and they don't just have to keep killing gazelles to feel better about being lions. And that's that sense of enough that when somebody has that, they are now able to have. They don't need to build towers so that other people can look at them in a certain way or how they have some weird shadow of how they. They feel about themselves. It's not. They already feel actualized, and therefore, they don't need to do something to prove they are something. They are that thing, you know? And it's easier than to take things down that don't work, because it doesn't.

Vik Jindal [00:54:36]:
You don't need that thing if it doesn't work. It just doesn't work. You don't need that thing anymore if it doesn't work.

Vision Battlesword [00:54:43]:
There's another saying that we have in our culture, which is ignorance is bliss. You think that's true?

Vik Jindal [00:54:52]:
No, I don't. I think ignorance is perceived bliss. I think it's sort of like this. I think ignorance is trying to think of the right way to think about it.

Vision Battlesword [00:55:05]:
I agree with you. Yeah, I think that's a scam.

Vik Jindal [00:55:07]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:55:09]:
I think that's an intentional limiting belief program that we're given.

Vik Jindal [00:55:14]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:55:15]:
And I mean, I get it. Superficially, of course. We all get what that means. It's like, oh, man, I wish I didn't know that, because now I gotta deal with it.

Vik Jindal [00:55:24]:
But that's the point, actually. That is the point, right? Because, like, once you become aware, you're like, fuck, now I gotta deal with this tower that I've built, that or this wall that's in front of me that I have to now bring down. And there's so much at stake.

Vision Battlesword [00:55:39]:
Yes.

Vik Jindal [00:55:39]:
Right.

Vision Battlesword [00:55:40]:
Or I now have work to do.

Vik Jindal [00:55:42]:
Yes. But I also think that when this is kind of goes back to the original. Not the original, but, like, one of the points we made about, like, is there something that forces you into building this tower so it eventually comes down? Meaning that your desire to remain ignorant is part of that? So, like, we were talking about this before, the sort of idea of kali, right? So Kali is like, indian goddess. And if you saw Kali, like, she would be terrifying looking. You know, she's all black, she's got a red tongue. You know, she's holding a severed head. She's got a necklace of severed heads and a skirt of arms that are hanging off her. I mean, she looks like, by western standards, she looks like a demon, you know, but she's actually sort of benevolent figure in some ways.

Vik Jindal [00:56:32]:
She's also considered mother nature. There's a lot of different ways to think about Kali, but one of the aspects that I like the most is that she's a destroyer of illusions. And so you can either destroy your own illusion, or Kali will do it for you, and it will be painful. And in the tower metaphor of building the tower, getting married, etcetera, and you just keep building until a gust of wind comes and blows the whole thing down. Some act of God or whatever. You know, I used to think that Kali was the wind and the gravity that brings the whole thing down. Like, Kali is the act of God that brings the tower down. But I actually think that there's something.

Vik Jindal [00:57:14]:
This idea that actually, it is the impetus that once we enter the illusion. So, like, once you start to build the tower, because the stakes are increasing, once you enter the illusion, the propensity to stay in the illusion actually increases. That's why things get absurd. And I think that, like, to some degree, there's this desire for us to stay in illusion almost with this sort of like, there may be some part of us that knows that we're being closed minded, that is actually desiring for that closed mindedness to end.

Vision Battlesword [00:57:48]:
Yeah, what's coming.

Vik Jindal [00:57:49]:
Yeah, go ahead.

Vision Battlesword [00:57:50]:
Yeah, what's coming up for me is, I'm agreeing with you, that I sense there is some kind of a drive, an innate, very, you know, very deep core drive that we all have to evolve, to evolve our consciousness to. To experience the truth, to get on.

Vik Jindal [00:58:12]:
The other side of the wall.

Vision Battlesword [00:58:13]:
Yeah, yeah. You know, or to bring the tower down ultimately and rebuild it. And I feel like that evolutionary impulse is inexorable. It can't be stopped. It's moving forward with or without. It's taken us along for the ride whether we like it or not.

Vik Jindal [00:58:32]:
Yes.

Vision Battlesword [00:58:33]:
And it's actually, that actually is the path of least resistance. That is the direction the river is flowing.

Vik Jindal [00:58:41]:
Yes.

Vision Battlesword [00:58:42]:
And yet for some reason, many times, we choose to swim or paddle in the other direction totally to try to. And maybe you even can go backwards a little bit for a while, but eventually you're going to be exhausted, or eventually that current is just going to be too strong and it's going to sweep you away. But maybe we enjoy the tension. Maybe we. It's like, oh, it's. But this is the part of the river that I really want to be at. I don't want to leave. I don't want to go.

Vision Battlesword [00:59:11]:
You try to stay there as much as you can, but it seems to me, I mean, this is my own philosophy of life, but we are a part of the evolutionary process of unfolding that has been in motion since the beginning of creation. It's just going, yes, but building these structures within that. Yeah, I wanted to bring it back to this. Just trying to figure out what is the value of open mindedness. And is it something that would be good for us to try to model, and is it something that would be good for us to try to encourage people, you know, invite people? I was just thinking about for myself. Like, there's always been something curious about me, and I guess I use that word as a pawn, you know, both to mean I am genuinely curious and also I'm a little odd, but there's always been something curious about me that seems to be not like most other people. Maybe I'm in a minority of people that are like this. Wherever I.

Vision Battlesword [01:00:19]:
I've always just been driven toward the truth. You know, I would rather be uncomfortable. I would rather be in pain. I would rather be lonely. Whatever. Whatever you discover that thing, that's going to cause you to change your worldview or that's going to cause you to take action to change your life or that's going to cause you to just not. To not be able to unsee what you have seen. Yeah, I want to see it.

Vik Jindal [01:00:48]:
Right.

Vision Battlesword [01:00:49]:
I want to know what's true, what's real, what's actually going on. And I want to be in alignment with that. I want to be in integrity with that. I would rather not be comfortable than be living in an illusion.

Vik Jindal [01:01:04]:
Yes. So I agree with you. I feel the same. And I guess going back to what we were talking about, you were asking me, who is Viktorville? Right. This is sort of what I meant. I am consciously aware that I'm full, I'm fully the representative of who I am. I'm in the full awareness of that. And so when these walls appear and we still have them, when I feel them, when I see them, when I notice them, because I become consciously aware that it's there, because suddenly I'm like, oh, there's this thing on the other side.

Vik Jindal [01:01:38]:
My desire is to constantly bring those down, and it sounds like yours is as well. We do have wounds or walls that we don't sometimes aren't even aware of. You know, they're just like, there's out there, and we're like, we're acting in a certain way. And then as soon as the awareness happens, then the question is, what do you do about it? And for me, it's all about kind of bringing those walls down. It sounds like that's the same.

Vision Battlesword [01:02:05]:
Yeah. It's just something I'm driven to do, and it's something that feels to me like a super important part of being in integrity with myself. I'll be the guy that will say the super unpopular thing or maybe the tough thing for someone to hear. And a big part of my process over time has been learning how to say those things in ways that are increasingly sensitive, empathetic, kind, non judgmental, and so forth. But at the end of the day, I mean, if there's a cup of water on the table and everybody's pretending like there isn't, I want to be the guy that says, I see a cup of water.

Vik Jindal [01:02:51]:
Yeah, totally.

Vision Battlesword [01:02:52]:
Does everybody else see that thing, too? Because I see that there.

Vik Jindal [01:02:55]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:02:55]:
And it seems like, it just seems like it's a rare commodity. It seems like there's, there's a lot of acculturation there's a lot of programming in our society that has something to do with politeness or that has something to do with privacy or minding your own business or going along to get along, or. I don't know what these different tropes and cliches, how they might be verbalized, but to me, it seems like we have to be more willing to speak the truth, speak the truth as we see it and as we understand it to each other, and then to also be willing to receive other people's truth in earnest, in all sincerity. Not to say that we have to accept it as our own, but to receive it, and then to maybe to compare notes, to compare. Put our cards on the table and see what all do we have to play with here, rather than keeping our cards, you know, close to our vest and playing some kind of, like, game as if life is poker.

Vik Jindal [01:03:59]:
Well, it's interesting. It's sort of like, how I think about it is the thing that you want to say is the thing that the other person needs to hear in order to actually be their fully actualized self often and vice versa. And so the commitment to that, like, I wear this, like I told you, this sort of, like, sigil of Kali, you know? And part of the reason I do that is this idea that it's a mental commitment that I am going to destroy my illusions so that Kelly doesn't have to. Right. But, like, it is. It is really important. Like, if you are trapped in something with somebody, let's say you were in a business relationship with somebody, and you're like, it's not working. But you're like, I don't know what to do about that.

Vik Jindal [01:04:43]:
Like, I don't want to, like, hurt the relationship, but it's not working. It's not working. It's not like, this doesn't work, and you withhold the desire to talk about it not working. What is now happening is that both of you are trapped in something that is not working. And so if you correct that, that person, not only are you free, but that person is now free to find the thing that works, you know?

Vision Battlesword [01:05:16]:
That's cool. Yeah. It reminds me of radical honesty. I'm realizing now I don't remember this being a theme of the book. Have you read it, by the way?

Vik Jindal [01:05:26]:
No.

Vision Battlesword [01:05:26]:
Okay. One of the most influential.

Vik Jindal [01:05:28]:
Yeah, I've heard this book. I've never read it.

Vision Battlesword [01:05:30]:
Yeah. It really, really set my life in a different. Onto a different trajectory early on, and I'm sure that it's a, you know, a real, real deep part of the programming that has led me to this point that I've been expressing where I feel really deeply motivated to be in integrity and to be honest and things in that book, though, the author, Brad Blanton, talks about how freeing yourself from your own secrets. So radical honesty isn't about being harsh and judgmental and being a dick to people.

Vik Jindal [01:06:07]:
Totally.

Vision Battlesword [01:06:08]:
But it also goes well beyond just not lying. Because radical honesty is about actually telling the truth. And the purpose of it, yes, is to be in integrity with people, but the deeper reason of it is to release yourself from the things that you're holding on to the things that you're withholding that are actually poisoning you.

Vik Jindal [01:06:34]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:06:34]:
Not just mentally, but even physically.

Vik Jindal [01:06:36]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:06:37]:
Our secrets, like create physical illness in our lives and disease. And I certainly have come to believe in that and experienced that. But you're helping me to realize in this moment that it's also for the other people as well, completely. That you telling your truth is also liberating to them.

Vik Jindal [01:07:01]:
Yes, 100%.

Vision Battlesword [01:07:03]:
That's fascinating.

Vik Jindal [01:07:03]:
And in fact, once I started internalizing this, where I haven't read the book, radical honesty, but it's something that I really genuinely live towards. And when I find myself not doing that, then I'll really push myself into, yes, be there. Sometimes it can be hard. We reach points. My relationships have blossomed in many ways and they've gotten much deeper because the people that are not meant to be in my life are no longer in my life. Like we didn't resonate completely. And then the people that are in my life are aware that they know exactly where they stand with me at all times and vice versa. Because we have that relationship of radical honesty, you know, and that allows people to trust you more, you know, because you are now worthy of trust, because you've adopted that point of view.

Vik Jindal [01:08:05]:
So people always know where they stand with you.

Vision Battlesword [01:08:11]:
How do you practice open mindedness in your own life?

Vik Jindal [01:08:19]:
Basically, when attention arises within either myself or between other people, I tune into what is happening, really what I'm feeling about the situation, and then I address it in some way, shape or form. It's as simple as that. I think in many ways, and I think I continue to evolve. How do I make that more effective of a process over time? So things like removing judgment allows me to be more open minded when I feel it. Come on. I'm aware of it. That's the most important thing is when I feel some tension, I look at it directly and I really examine what is happening there first and foremost, it's almost like a fact gathering process.

Vision Battlesword [01:09:06]:
So you can notice in your experience, when you're confronted with some information or idea, that when you experience tension, that's a signal to you that, oh, maybe there's some element of closed mindedness here.

Vik Jindal [01:09:20]:
Yes.

Vision Battlesword [01:09:21]:
Interesting.

Vik Jindal [01:09:22]:
Yes. With the goal of. Again, I mean, I literally think of my goal as opening this dark room as much as possible. And so when I encounter that, I'm like, there's something that's happening there that's blocking me from having this room as open as possible. You know?

Vision Battlesword [01:09:38]:
Is it possible to be too open minded?

Vik Jindal [01:09:41]:
I don't think so. Actually. Open mindedness, I don't think, means agreeable on everything. You could say, like, I just don't agree with that.

Vision Battlesword [01:09:54]:
So open mindedness isn't the same thing as just accepting everything that completely.

Vik Jindal [01:09:59]:
They're totally different. The open mindedness is the ability to see that other point of view, and then you can come to the best decision that you think makes the most sense.

Vision Battlesword [01:10:14]:
Would it be fair to say that open mindedness is the ability to, as you say, see and entertain and neutrally evaluate any various idea or perspective without experiencing, like, an emotional charge related to it?

Vik Jindal [01:10:33]:
Yeah, that sounds like it makes sense to me.

Vision Battlesword [01:10:35]:
Okay.

Vik Jindal [01:10:35]:
And then, you know, there's an idea I wanted to come back to a little bit about what's the point of open mindedness? I think we talked about, and I sort of think about it, like, imagine a world where everyone was perfectly open minded for a second. I think that that would probably be a world that has a lot more peace and a lot more, like love that kind of resides in most people. Because, like, we have an honest conversation about what's happening constantly between us and within ourselves. Yeah, I think that that's sort of the goal.

Vision Battlesword [01:11:06]:
And so it seems like we might also be a lot more productive that way.

Vik Jindal [01:11:11]:
Probably. We're not fighting over so much bullshit.

Vision Battlesword [01:11:14]:
We might solve a lot more problems, 100%, just because we'd have more information.

Vik Jindal [01:11:19]:
Totally.

Vision Battlesword [01:11:19]:
To work with.

Vik Jindal [01:11:20]:
Totally.

Vision Battlesword [01:11:20]:
If we're not closing ourselves off to perspectives that even if we don't agree with them necessarily, as you said, at least there could be information there that could point us in a direction of something else that we might agree with.

Vik Jindal [01:11:32]:
Totally. So, like, let's say we're trying to solve, like, XYZ political problem. Okay. And I'm only seeing my point of view, and I want to solve my problem. You're only seeing your point of view and you want to solve your problem. Well, then actually, how do we ever solve the problem? Because, like, I need to get my problem solved. You need to get your problem solved. And if we're not acknowledging the validity of each other's problems, do we actually ever solve the problem? No.

Vik Jindal [01:12:03]:
And so if we are more open minded to see the other person's point of view, and likewise, if we were all like that, we would start to tend towards solving problems just generally.

Vision Battlesword [01:12:14]:
That totally resonates for me, and it reminds me of when I first moved to Austin. I came here in 2008, and I fell in with a group called the Dionysium that was putting on these monthly variety shows at the Alamo drafthouse. So instead of a movie, it would be a live show that included lectures and debates and musical performances and comedy and all sorts of different things. A variety show. And I fell in with this group, and I really fell in love with the program itself. And then I started becoming one of their regular debaters. Cause every single show would have a debate that was, like, kind of the centerpiece of the show. And this was, like, as I say, 15 plus years ago.

Vision Battlesword [01:12:56]:
This was before kind of debates became kind of more of a bigger mainstream thing as they are now, which I think is really cool. But it's also, well, I've got different feelings about it, but that's not part of my story. So I started becoming a regular debater there. And, you know, I'm competitive, as you know, and I like to win. And in particular, like, so the format of the thing, just that, just the rhetorical, you know, oratorical, like, exercise of it is just very stimulating to me. But in addition, I wanted to learn how to win these debates.

Vik Jindal [01:13:34]:
Yes.

Vision Battlesword [01:13:35]:
And so I, you know, I practiced a lot, and, and I got very, very good at it. And, and to the point where I was pretty much, they declared me the debate champion. I was winning anytime I wanted to. And I. I started taking more and more difficult positions. So I would start taking positions intentionally that I didn't actually agree with, but I didn't believe in because I thought they'd be hard. Yeah, it was hard to argue totally with you, you know? And part of my preparation style that I developed for myself was I wanted to deeply, deeply, deeply know every single thing about my opponent's position. Every single, like steel man, as they call it now.

Vision Battlesword [01:14:20]:
Right. To steel man their position, to really. To really find out, to get in their head, like, what's. What's going to be coming at me? What are the kind of arguments? What's the best possible argument that they could come up with what are the actual true facts? Like, what do they actually have on their side? So that I could then figure out ways to dismantle that totally, you know, and not necessarily in an entirely, let's say, intellectually. I wouldn't say I was ever intellectually dishonest, but I certainly used all of the rhetorical.

Vik Jindal [01:14:50]:
Yeah. And there's certain things that you withheld that probably were countervailing to your arguments that you thought of, like, oh, that's a good argument, but I would not.

Vision Battlesword [01:14:56]:
Of course, reveal that. Right, exactly. So it was a game, but in the process of playing that game, it completely changed the way that I think about argumentation altogether. Because in the process of preparing for some of these debates, I actually realized I'm like, shit, this side has a good point.

Vik Jindal [01:15:18]:
Yes.

Vision Battlesword [01:15:18]:
Like, I might actually be wrong here.

Vik Jindal [01:15:20]:
Yes.

Vision Battlesword [01:15:22]:
I might actually be winning the debate against myself in doing the preparation for the other side of it. And then I would come out and I would do the best I could, and oftentimes I would win, even if I had come to disagree ultimately with my own position. And that was a bit flip. That was a switch in my brain that got flipped and can never get flipped back because I realized in that moment how valuable that exercise is. If what we actually want to do is figure out what's true, or if what we want to do is figure out maybe not true in the sense of, like, one person's position is completely valid and the other person's position is totally invalid. But what's more likely the case is that we each have some piece of the truth here.

Vik Jindal [01:16:12]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:16:13]:
And if we put our pieces together, we actually have a superior position than what either one of ours is as a binary.

Vik Jindal [01:16:20]:
Exactly. Okay. So, like, what's interesting about the way that you approached it is you were doing that with conscious awareness that you were doing that. And I think there's a lot of political discourse that is in debate style kind of format, that is completely set on just winning the argument.

Vision Battlesword [01:16:38]:
Correct.

Vik Jindal [01:16:38]:
Of their position without any actual desire to see it as an exercise of understanding between the two sides. And that's the part where. When it feels unhealthy.

Vision Battlesword [01:16:50]:
Exactly, exactly. Yeah. And that was just such a revelation for me, and it caused me to realize that our entire society is actually based on this technology of binary argumentation. Our whole society is based on it. It's our entire system of governance, it's our entire legal system, and it shows up everywhere in our lives all the time, even in just having a normal conversation. With someone, assume a rhetorical position of, well, I'm the affirmative and you're the negative of whatever position it is. And only one of us can be right.

Vik Jindal [01:17:32]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:17:33]:
And that's bullshit.

Vik Jindal [01:17:34]:
Yes. There's two things that are coming to mind. One is the four agreements and how, like, one of them is. There's two that are really poignant right now is one is never make assumptions. The other one is always be true with your word I. Right.

Vision Battlesword [01:17:49]:
Yeah.

Vik Jindal [01:17:50]:
You know, and that's sort of how you, the toltecs, you know, basically got their dream that became a nightmare back into a sort of dream state of the world being, you know, beautiful.

Vision Battlesword [01:18:02]:
Yeah.

Vik Jindal [01:18:03]:
That's one thing that comes to mind. So, you know, the. So our whole society is based on these. Right. These, like, these kind of binary positions, and that actually implies that we're sort of trapped in these illusions writ large.

Vision Battlesword [01:18:21]:
Yeah.

Vik Jindal [01:18:21]:
And so one of the things that I thought was really interesting, I remember I saw this recently, it was like on a video where this philosopher was postulating that basically this sort of awakening that everyone is sort of expecting is when all these illusions come crashing down sort of all at once. And you can kind of tell that our society is becoming more and more absurd. And so, again, absurdity is the telltale sign that illusion is kind of coming to its logical conclusion. Yeah. And so, as you see, absurdity, the problem is you don't know how absurd it's going to get. You just know, like, absurdity tends to go, like, if you think about it as a. As almost a math equation close to its, like, asymptotic curve, where it just gets exponentially absurd, you know, and you can tell things in our world are getting sort of exponentially absurd.

Vision Battlesword [01:19:14]:
Yeah.

Vik Jindal [01:19:14]:
Right. And so that kind of gives you a sense that this sort of illusion, these illusions, are going to come crashing down.

Vision Battlesword [01:19:24]:
Well, it reminds me, and the way you described it just now reminds me of the origin of consciousness in the breakdown of the bicameral mind by Julian Janes. You're not familiar with that one?

Vik Jindal [01:19:35]:
No.

Vision Battlesword [01:19:36]:
Well, that is a whole sacred conversation in and of itself, for sure. But just to kind of articulate the little point that's coming up for me, when you talk about that asymptotic curve, there's this entire theory that was created by a psychologist named Julian Janes to explain. It's the overlap of psychology and archaeology. And through analyzing the historical archaeological record, Doctor Janes came up with a theory to explain the evolution of our consciousness and how it goes through, like, quantum leaps or dramatic shifts. Shifts, yeah. And can kind of see again in the historical record based on what's available from the beginning of writing and even before that to actually prove that prior to a certain specific point in time, we as a species had a completely different kind of consciousness, like we thought totally differently. And even looking at the structures in the brain, you can see how that evolution occurred. And I believe that we are on the cusp of another one of those shifts.

Vision Battlesword [01:20:59]:
And what happens, just like what you said, the illusion of the existing, our existing frame of reality dissolves and breaks down and then creates the conditions for a new kind of consciousness to emerge. And I think that's where we're at.

Vik Jindal [01:21:19]:
Yeah. So that's interesting. So it feels to me to mesh in what you were saying about this bilateral way of. Not bilateral, but these sort of contrary ways of thinking, these sort of two parts. The binary binary is like that mode of thinking is rapidly reaching its logical conclusion.

Vision Battlesword [01:21:40]:
Yes.

Vik Jindal [01:21:41]:
Right. And then. And as that breaks down, like these things aren't happening, completely devoid, like, meaning that there is some element of this new frame of mind that is already being developed and it is out there. Right. This sort of frame of view that is also happening. So some people are actively taking down their towers. Some people are actively leaving their illusions. But society writ large is still in this sort of like getting to this logical conclusion.

Vik Jindal [01:22:12]:
And so to me, it's sort of like. It's almost like waves, like where there's like, this one wave is crashing down while this new wave is starting to rise.

Vision Battlesword [01:22:20]:
Yes. Yeah. And apparently this is what it's like.

Vik Jindal [01:22:26]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:22:27]:
Apparently what it's like is it feels a little bit like the entire species is going crazy at the same time. Yes, because that's exactly what it is.

Vik Jindal [01:22:41]:
Yes.

Vision Battlesword [01:22:42]:
And by crazy, I mean, what is our definition of sanity except the general consensus of reality? And our general consensus of reality breaks down. And out of that collective craziness or absurdity, the new thing has the opportunity to create a new structure, a new structure of not just our belief system, but our actual frame of reality.

Vik Jindal [01:23:10]:
Right. And that sort of goes. And this is a whole different conversation. Probably don't want to go here, but I feel personally, some because of this awareness that this is happening, some sense of personal responsibility, personal desire, actually, even to help facilitate this in some way, this transition. And that's why I talk to the students in business school. It's sort of how I conduct business is in a way that feels like really open minded and really, like, create and foster discussion around different things. I'm working on et cetera. And I can tell what tends to happen is when you operate from that place, people who normally don't operate from that place are actually drawn to an observation that that's a pretty interesting place to operate from.

Vik Jindal [01:23:58]:
And then they start to begin to operate from that place. And so, you know, that can open up a whole different can of worms. But it's sort of like this idea that if you. The thing that's coming up is like, if you're like, let's say, like a healer as an example or a. I think that denotes that, like, some idea that you're doing something, like giving medicine or doing. That's like, one way to think about a healer for society. But I think another way to think about it is that you carry yourself in a certain way in everything that you do. That then kind of carries, I don't know, for lack of better word, a different vibration that then people can tune into and observe.

Vik Jindal [01:24:43]:
And it kind of spreads like that, just in the way that a person who's deep in a closed minded or hurt place carries a certain vibration that brings people around them down to that place. If you operate from this place where you're open minded and reaching for open mindedness, then other people will do so as well, and it kind of spreads. And then. So therefore, I feel a personal commitment to doing that, to doing the work personally inside my internal work, constantly whenever I come up on these walls, so that I can further myself, that then allows that fullness to. However it affects others, it will affect them. And so if I can be in a more open place within myself, that will affect others to maybe want to do the same. And so that's where that flywheel thing from beginning of the conversation comes in, where it's like, if I can operate from that place and I'm making that box better and better and better, the things that are coming out of me and channeling the things that are coming into me, like, if I can make that so I'm spreading more and more love, open mindedness, abundance, whatever, right?

Vision Battlesword [01:26:06]:
Yeah. The metaphor that's coming up for me, or that's been coming up for me lately is of a crystal, the way a crystal grows. Do you know how that works? So crystals start from a seed, which gives them their initial geometry, their initial shape, and then it's just layer upon layer upon layer of atoms or molecules that trace that same geometry over and over and over and over and over.

Vik Jindal [01:26:40]:
Yeah, that's cool.

Vision Battlesword [01:26:41]:
So if you take a look at a salt crystal. It's cubical. So the teeniest, tiniest salt crystal that you can possibly see, maybe under a microscope, is a perfect cube. And then, you know, you could theoretically get a giant block of salt that's still a perfect cube. And everything in between is fractal in that way. But it starts with just the tiny. What you're actually viewing, I believe, is the molecular geometry, the actual molecular geometry. It starts with one of the tiniest.

Vik Jindal [01:27:12]:
Possible versions of that geometry, of that specific shape.

Vision Battlesword [01:27:17]:
And then I, more of the same substance accretes to that geometry as it gets bigger and bigger. And so that's kind of how I think of going through the world, is it's not for me to convert or evangelize or spread my.

Vik Jindal [01:27:34]:
It will happen regardless.

Vision Battlesword [01:27:36]:
It's just for me to be the shape I am.

Vik Jindal [01:27:40]:
Exactly.

Vision Battlesword [01:27:40]:
And if that's attractive and if that's others of a similar shape, yes.

Vik Jindal [01:27:46]:
It's not about evangelizing. That's my point. It's like who you are is actually affecting everyone around you no matter what. And so I personally think open mindedness is a good way to be, and so I want to be open minded. And people have a tendency to want to be open minded when they're around other open minded people, I think, you.

Vision Battlesword [01:28:04]:
Know, I don't really think that's a very good idea, and I'm not willing to entertain. Yeah, I'm very open minded about what you're saying.

Vik Jindal [01:28:12]:
Yeah, I appreciate that.

Vision Battlesword [01:28:15]:
Is there anything else about open mindedness that is important to you to share?

Vik Jindal [01:28:22]:
My thinking constantly evolves around it and grows because I'm open minded about being open minded or open mindedness, rather, but there's nothing that comes immediately to mind.

Vision Battlesword [01:28:32]:
I feel like I've learned a lot in the process, so I'm very grateful to you, as I always am from our conversations.

Vik Jindal [01:28:38]:
Yeah, me too.

Vision Battlesword [01:28:39]:
I always feel like I get a lot from these.

Vik Jindal [01:28:40]:
Yeah, me too.

Vision Battlesword [01:28:41]:
100% cool, man.

Vik Jindal [01:28:43]:
Yeah. Thanks. Vision.