Vision Battlesword [00:00:00]:
Good morning, Connor.

Connor Bell [00:00:01]:
Morning, vision.

Vision Battlesword [00:00:03]:
So I'll just start where I always start, which is with a quick introduction. Who are you, Connor Bell?

Connor Bell [00:00:11]:
Right now, I am a dreamer, a philosophizer. I am a child of God and all that is I am a curious being. I have a lot to learn. I have a lot to experience, and I am grateful for my connection with self and my connection with others in my life.

Vision Battlesword [00:00:38]:
There's something else about you that's very special to me, which is that you are one of the very, very first people to have come to an experienced sacred light power activation. You were part of container number one. And so that always, you will always have a very special place in my heart and in my life. And I'm just so happy that we've continued and, in fact, pursued a relationship with each other over these last few years. And I feel that that relationship is growing and deepening more in the last few months than in the last, previous two years. And I'm just very happy for that. And I'm glad that you reached out to initiate this conversation because I really look forward to talking with you.

Connor Bell [00:01:26]:
Likewise. Yeah. That experience changed my reality in a beautiful way.

Vision Battlesword [00:01:33]:
So I'm Vision Battlesword I'm the founder of Sacred Light. I'm the creator of Intentional Autonomous Relating, and I'm the host of Sacred Conversations. And the conversation that we agreed with, what we would like to have today is on the topic of value or values in the abstract, intentionally in the abstract, because we were having our little kind of preliminary conversation and what was coming up for you. We were just talking about what's true and interesting and relevant for you right now. And you started to talking about how you're in a process of self discovery of your true values, your core values. And a few different things came up for you. And what I noticed in what you were saying is there were some things that you were identifying as values that I never would have thought of as the kind of things that a person might identify as their core values.

Vision Battlesword [00:02:33]:
And so that got me thinking about just what do we value in general? You know, because me and StrongBear, I was also mentioning this to you. Me and StrongBear have been doing some interesting exploration around a specific set of values that we're aligning to in a container that we're creating. But then some of the things that you brought up are not things that I would have thought of as values. And so that's where I kind of want to start the exploration. Would you mind just reminding me here briefly what are some of those things that you are finding are core values for yourself in your life?

Connor Bell [00:03:11]:
Yeah, it seems to be a few things. Dance, slash movements. I've been using those interchangeably. Singing, play, philosophizing with God about goddess creation at large, and I don't know if I'm leaving one out. Music. They seem to be different avenues of expression, almost.

Vision Battlesword [00:03:40]:
Yeah, that's what I notice about most of those. They do all seem to be methods of expression. Singing, dance, music, philosophy. I'm not sure if God is a separate value or if God is more associated with philosophy in your value system.

Connor Bell [00:04:00]:
It seems like, and I think it's also a reason why I say last, it's almost like those are just different ways that I interface with God, that I relate with God. It's interesting because those specific things, they have always been true for me, and I'm curious. They've also been things that I felt like I haven't fully honored throughout my life. It's almost like there's a part of me that wants to reach a level of mastery with those specific avenues of expression, to get to know God in these specific ways. And I don't know, if I reach a certain level of mastery, then those will shift and those will change, and then there will be new things, like new core values that unveil themselves.

Vision Battlesword [00:04:50]:
The one in particular that stuck out for me was dance. And play has always been one of the sacred light core values, one of those things that we align to. And I thought that we, you and me, might talk about play and explore that whole concept. So play makes sense to me, and then dance stuck out to me as well. Is that a core value, or is that just a thing that you value? But even in articulating that question, I realized, wait a second, what's the difference? What is the difference between a value versus a thing that we value? Or are they actually exactly the same thing? And if that's true, then what does that say about how we create or how we discover our so called values, expanding all the way out from our personal values to our values as a community, our values as a society, our values as an organization. So, in relationship to your value of dance, I started reflecting in my own life and thinking, well, there's something that I value, which is board games. I love board games. I enjoy them very much.

Vision Battlesword [00:05:57]:
They have a very important place in my life. I spend a lot of time and energy creating experiences for myself with board games. Does that make board games? But previously, I would not have said, if you said, you know, vision. What can you please articulate for me your core values as a human? I wouldn't have thought to put board games on the list. So now this is kind of the thought experiment that's really, like, opening this whole conversation for me, is, well, what exactly are values? And are there some that are. That we have a sense of as being, like, more legitimate than others? Am I allowed to value something as frivolous as board games, or am I allowed to count that as a core value of mine? And where do we get that permission from? Like you were saying before we started the recording as well. You were saying, gosh, now you're starting to get me thinking about where and when and how. Was I even taught about what to value?

Connor Bell [00:06:53]:
Yeah. The word that's also coming up is virtue. How do you distinguish virtue with value?

Vision Battlesword [00:07:00]:
I love that question. What's your answer?

Connor Bell [00:07:02]:
I don't really know. Honestly. I've never been given. I guess I can tap into it now. I've only used virtue in context. I've never been. I've never actually gone into the dictionary and dug into it.

Vision Battlesword [00:07:18]:
Well, I have a rule, sort of. It's not really a hard rule, but one of the things that I like about these conversations is that we don't go to the dictionary, but we kind of work it through. So what does virtue mean to you?

Connor Bell [00:07:32]:
Virtue, intuitively, in this moment, it seems like something that I share with someone else, and a value is something just. Am I like sovereign, core being something that's like virtuous, joy, us. It's like when you add the US, it's like a. It's something that's meant to be shared.

Vision Battlesword [00:07:56]:
Even that word, us, I know it's spelled o u s, but.

Connor Bell [00:08:01]:
Yeah, the word where there isn't, like, there isn't value. Us.

Vision Battlesword [00:08:05]:
Yeah.

Connor Bell [00:08:05]:
You know, which is interesting, right? Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:08:09]:
So, to me, virtue certainly carries a connotation of a moral judgment of good. Do you know what I mean?

Connor Bell [00:08:18]:
Okay.

Vision Battlesword [00:08:19]:
Like, to me, I can almost. In this moment, it feels like a virtue is a value that is judged as good by someone that could be by society. Maybe that's from God, maybe that's from an authority figure. I don't know. It's hard to imagine, like, negative virtues you wouldn't think of. Well, it's fascinating that what just came up for me in this moment, of course, is Ayn Rand, the virtue of selfishness, which tells me something about something latent in my belief system that I even still think of selfishness as bad or negative or non virtuous. But I'm not trying to take us down a rabbit hole. You wouldn't think of the virtue of murder.

Vision Battlesword [00:09:03]:
That's an easy one.

Connor Bell [00:09:06]:
Yeah, it typically doesn't.

Vision Battlesword [00:09:07]:
You think of the virtue of generosity, the virtue of grace, forgiveness, peace.

Connor Bell [00:09:15]:
Yeah. There's an element of righteousness in it. Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:09:18]:
Whereas a value is more neutral, it's more personal, it's more relative.

Connor Bell [00:09:26]:
I'd like to go back to your previous question. When I brought up virtue about value, do you remember what that was?

Vision Battlesword [00:09:33]:
Yeah, I was just kind of setting a stage there a little bit in the box that was getting opened for me around my own curiosity of what are values? Where my sense is that we kind of. We're gifted with certain assumptions very early in life that kind of create the box itself within which we understand and have a relationship with values. And for me, what just happened in our conversation was that that box got cracked open, and I'm sort of stepping out of the box altogether and saying, like, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a second. What are these things?

Connor Bell [00:10:16]:
Yeah. What's coming up for me is it's almost like the values that I shared with dance, movement, play, all those things. It's almost like they're. They're buckets of which I can access truth, whereas I can find truth.

Vision Battlesword [00:10:35]:
Well, would it be right to say that all of those things are things that you value?

Connor Bell [00:10:39]:
Yes, very much.

Vision Battlesword [00:10:40]:
So. What does it mean to value something?

Connor Bell [00:10:43]:
For me, it's almost like they're just. They're channels of which I feel called to explore self. Like call to explore. Yeah, just ways that I understand myself.

Vision Battlesword [00:10:54]:
I like that phrase, ways that I understand myself. You could apply that to a set of values at any level, from an individual to a group to a group to an organization to a society, to a nation. These concepts, these buckets, are ways that we understand ourself. They're a lens through which we view ourself, perhaps.

Connor Bell [00:11:23]:
Yeah, a lens, that's a good.

Vision Battlesword [00:11:26]:
And also they are things on which we place a certain level of importance, which is another way of saying priority.

Connor Bell [00:11:35]:
Yeah. Yeah. A lot of talk, at least in my experience, has been around intention versus attention. Yeah. It's like a focal point for our attention. I feel like personally, I've, for whatever reason, been straying away. It's so, again, it's like a. It's a silo of truth, because even though these are my values and I can identify these, I can definitely stray away from them.

Connor Bell [00:12:02]:
It's definitely been easy to stray away from them. Like I said, there's something that has to do with truth in it.

Vision Battlesword [00:12:09]:
If you're straying away from your values, does that tell you that there's something else that you actually value?

Connor Bell [00:12:16]:
I feel like that can be the case, yeah, there's definitely a discernment with that. Right. Is it something that is more of a vice or something that is not actually serving me, or is it something that I genuinely. Okay, now that thing feels fulfilled in knowing myself in that way. But now I'm being called to something else. So I'm like, I am willfully shifting my attention to this new value and figuring out, like, how can I create opportunity and environments to explore this deeper, this aspect of myself?

Vision Battlesword [00:12:56]:
I think it's really interesting. Oh, I'm sorry. I mean, to cut you off.

Connor Bell [00:12:59]:
Oh, no. Yeah. And then you can. And then again, once you. Again, it's like, once you establish that, then you can be like, oh, okay, cool. Is this something I want to explore myself, or is this something I want to explore with a community, you know, or intimately with just one person? Or.

Vision Battlesword [00:13:23]:
One thing I'm noticing in our conversation is that the idea of virtue and vice keeps coming up, and I feel like we're hitting on something. We're, like, over the target here around what we are taught to think and believe about values, which is that they are entangled with, or maybe sometimes synonymous with virtues, where it seems to me that what we're uncovering here is that the nature of value is inherently neutral. There's all different things that we could value. If what we mean by that is it's something that we place a sense of importance on, or something that we prioritize ahead of or above or in front of other things. But there's some values which are considered virtues, and then we're encouraged to align to and pursue those, whereas there's other values that are considered vices, and we're discouraged or maybe made ashamed.

Connor Bell [00:14:30]:
Ashamed? Yeah. There's like. Or there's, like, discriminant type stuff around it. Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:14:35]:
So would you be open to giving me an example? When you're talking about there's been times in your life when you feel like you turned away from your quote, unquote, values to pursue other things that maybe you consider vices? What's an example of that?

Connor Bell [00:14:53]:
Well, this is very real, my current reality. Just add some context. And what I would say, big rebirth right now, where I was, like, dismantling these set of values that I've developed from what I was originally the original construct of values, like what I was taught and it almost is. Almost like it distorted the vices and the true values, the things that I were told. So that's the thing. Yeah. I was told certain things were valuable, like having certain possessions. I guess the original concept of value that I had operated from was these things are valuable because they keep you alive.

Vision Battlesword [00:15:45]:
What sort of things are those?

Connor Bell [00:15:48]:
Like, having. Just having a stable income, having a house, having certain things. To me, basic needs. So value was tied to a lot to needs and survival. And so I think this is probably a big reason why I'm rewriting that now, because I no longer feel as, like, energetically tied to that anymore. And that's why there is this calling to new meaning of the word. But I think that's what I would do in the past. There would be these true values of which, like God creation wanted to be stewarded through me, or wanted to interface with me or relate to me.

Connor Bell [00:16:31]:
And then there would be this more egoic set of values that were. That was like, okay, yeah, you can honor those as long as you make sure that you survive and you take care of these things that are going to keep you alive. I created these. These, like two subsets of values. One more based in truth and one more based in ego is another way.

Vision Battlesword [00:16:54]:
Of saying that one is more based in the material world and one is more based in the spiritual or the.

Connor Bell [00:17:03]:
Yeah, could say it that way.

Vision Battlesword [00:17:06]:
That's interesting. I mean, to me it seems rational, and I agree with you. I think that that is a very common template or paradigm that we inherit from mother culture, from our actual parents, from our peer group mentors, is that value is very much tied to survival. And then beyond survival, abundance. Beyond abundance, luxury. It ties together for me very much to the conversation I recently had with David Sauvage about money. And in that conversation, the concept of value was coming up a lot, but in a completely different frame. But it's like I'm seeing how it's all the same frame.

Vision Battlesword [00:17:59]:
Or what you're saying is that we're taught to value certain things, but there's like a contradiction, or rather, there's a bit of a cognitive dissonance in these kind of two frames of reference, of value. On the one hand, place a lot of value on the things that provide for your survival, nourishment and ultimate flourishing in the material world. But on the other hand, place a lot of value on these, let's say, more virtuous or idealistic concepts of care and fairness and generosity, charity, truth, justice, honesty, like these sort of things. But we're not really taught how to integrate those two things together, it seems to me.

Connor Bell [00:18:49]:
Yeah, it's almost like they. Yeah. Instead of starting at the heart of it, it's like we're starting at both the poles and working our way to the center. The way that this is mapping out in my mind right now is just like the chakra system. So it's almost like each energy center has its own set of values. You could have your own set of values for each energy center, almost. And, like, what they say is, it's like the heart that bridges all of it. And so I think that's kind of what I'm coming back to right now is I like, I like deconstructed because I was trying to do go from the poles to the center, and it's almost like I'm deconstructing all those and then just starting with the heart and then create and then, like.

Connor Bell [00:19:39]:
And then developing my values from that point. So I'm just, like, reverse engineering it. And so the things that I'm. The things that I'm naming right now, after I eliminated all the noise, I cleared out all the noise from the previous way that I was operating, I just came back to, like, those were the things that remained. It was just those core things. I was like, okay, cool. And I felt it, like, just deep in my heart. And so I was like, this is an experiment, too.

Connor Bell [00:20:11]:
Like, I. This is the first time I'm really just coming back to that and operating from that and then. And then figuring out the rest. You, you know, like, going up the chain and down the chain, both creatively and spiritually, and then, like, more grounding, more rooted, more taking care of, like, primal needs, but this is great exploration.

Vision Battlesword [00:20:32]:
So what I'm hearing you saying, okay, so I think there's another dichotomy, or I don't want to say binary, because I don't see them as opposites or even necessarily on the same spectrum. But the piece that you identified as true needs versus egoic needs, I'm sensing more about what you're talking about as you explain it. So the true needs. Not necessarily. Excuse me, the true needs are not necessarily spiritual needs, but they are the needs that you can identify as coming up from within you, as your deepest heart's desire, the way that you would really choose to express yourself, that you would. That you would like or wish to express yourself or the things that you really do deeply value that are true to you. When you strip away all of the cultural programming, the assumptions, the other stories, other people's stories, past stories for myself, whatever that may be, those are the things that you're getting to as far as true values. But then there's this other thing called egoic values, which aren't necessarily based in the world of things or material or survival.

Vision Battlesword [00:21:45]:
But I'm sensing that there's something else there. There's a drive to satisfy the ego's needs, the need for whatever that could be. Self importance, validation, recognition, attention. Those are other things that people do tend to value. Yeah.

Connor Bell [00:22:03]:
And I would say that those are, those are just as true. I'm coming back, coming to a place where, I mean, that was, it's almost like the whole, even the whole concept of the ego was just created, you know, to serve this process that's happening right now, you know? Yeah, now I'm coming to peace with that's just as true as these, these like, deep desires, right, that are seeking to be seen and amplified because my whole relationship with that has shifted. And just like, knowing that, that I'm going, that I am taken care of. And like, since my whole reality is shifted in that sense, it's like, what is my role in that process? You know, like the. Cool, these are, Val, these are all just values. These are true values. Okay, cool. Now, what is my, what is the role that I play in this? Now, the, the true values of basic needs are really just taken care of.

Connor Bell [00:23:01]:
Like, they're just inherent. They just are, and I know that. And because of that, now I can play a more active role in these other truths that seek to be explored in other dimensions of my experience in dance, in music, and all those things. So, yeah, still navigating that, but that's what's real for me right now.

Vision Battlesword [00:23:29]:
Hmm, interesting. What I'm noticing is that it seems like values, oftentimes for people or groups, organizations, are aspirational, and we sort of take those foundational needs, in a way, for granted. I wonder if you're hitting on something here where there's an element of recognition of true values. Like, I do value comfort. I value comfort for myself. I value self care. I value health and wellness and a certain amount of leisure time. And I'm not ashamed of that.

Vision Battlesword [00:24:09]:
These are part of my base values, my material values that then serves to orient me in life, in how I choose to spend my time and energy, where I choose to place my attention, and how I create my intentions. What do you think about that?

Connor Bell [00:24:25]:
Yeah, I mean, what's coming to me is it seems like there definitely are values are more personal that serve the self. And then, yeah, if you're thinking of a company that's creating a set of values, from my experience in certain companies, they'll do them, number one, as a protocol, as an algorithm to make decisions independently at different levels of the entity and of the machine. And also from my experience, it's from a perspective of having everyone connected to something bigger. So if you're building something that's quite elaborate, and like you said, it has aspirations tied to it, I felt disconnected. If something was very specific as, like, a need versus an aspiration, well, do.

Vision Battlesword [00:25:23]:
Those aspirational concepts waterfall into more like the strategic to the tactical? For example, we have a value of excellence. Well, now we get to translate that into. Yeah. What that means is, first and foremost, we're definitely meeting our quotas. In fact, we're going above and beyond meeting our quotas because we value excellence. And we're going above and beyond three star reviews. You know, that's satisfactory. But we strive for a much higher level of performance than that because we value excellence.

Vision Battlesword [00:25:58]:
So it's like the values kind of become containers, like, to bring it back to your original use of the word bucket that we can put a lot of different details into to help us to orient ourselves and to align to the things that are important. Does that make sense?

Connor Bell [00:26:16]:
Yeah, I'm thinking of an analogy for that because, yeah. Are we establishing the values for a specific function, for a specific outcome, or for experience? It's so interesting because it's almost like even at the source and at the end is like, this concept of value. It's like, okay, yeah, we value this thing. Excellence. Yeah, like excellence. So that seems like. It seems like a more, like, abstract way of being to then serve, like a process or an end goal. Okay, so let's just say excellence is like the main water source or something from the ocean.

Connor Bell [00:26:56]:
And then they're like, okay, we're going to channel, like, this is the thing we're going to tap into as a community, or even, like, you could think of a well or whatever, and this is the mechanism. We're going to channel that into this specific thing. Maybe this, like, system of aquifers or this irrigation system to serve a function of agriculture or, like. Or harvest or.

Vision Battlesword [00:27:23]:
Yeah, no, I get where you're going with this, and I like it a lot. I think this is really driving us forward somewhere, because what you're bringing up for me is the question of, well, what are values for? And what I'm getting is, well, there's one big picture thing that came up for me when you first started talking, which is, there's only so many things that we as humans can really hold at the same time in our mind, in our consciousness, in our heart, in our intentions. And so these values that we create are like encapsulations of enormous complexity, but we can encapsulate it in this concept, this word, this phrase. Let's call it excellence. And I can hold excellence. And then that becomes kind of like a placeholder in a database for when I need to orient to something, when I need to decide what's right action, what's right behavior in this moment, what do I actually. What are my priorities here? Or what ought I do? I can come back to that. I can double click on that pointer and explore excellence again or expand that and say, okay, yeah, yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:28:42]:
Does this fit excellence? Am I in the zone of excellence? How do I define excellence? Okay, I remember this is what I thought in the past that brings me back to a place where I can make a decision. But then how do we originally get to excellence? Or a big picture value concept like that, that we may orient our personal life or even the life of our tribe or our society around? And I love your example of the irrigation and the crops. It's like, okay, well, we value getting water to the crops. Why? Well, because we value the crops growing well. Why? Well, because we value having food to eat. Why? Well, because we value satisfying our basic needs for hunger and nourishment. Why? Well, because we want to be satisfied and content and grow and live as people. Well, why? Well, because our lives are valuable, and our lives have meaning and we want to flourish in them.

Vision Battlesword [00:29:38]:
Why? You see what I mean? And eventually you get to, yeah, I value abundance. I value that. That's something I want to orient my life around. And I'd like to come together with other people who share that value, who want to orient toward that so that we can find those details that we can enact in our lives to experience that value.

Connor Bell [00:30:01]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:30:02]:
I notice also in our society that there's a whole other cluster of values that sometimes seem to be taken for granted or even honored and respected in a certain way, which I think is interesting. I think that there's a whole suite of values around achievement and accomplishment and pursuit of material success, as well as status, fame, and fortune. Let's just say that there's a story in our culture that it's okay to value, or that it's even good and right and appropriate to value kind of doing whatever it takes to win the competitive game of life.

Connor Bell [00:30:49]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:30:49]:
What do you think about that?

Connor Bell [00:30:51]:
Yeah, I feel like I've been in a process of deconditioning all of that in a big way the past year and, yeah, realizing how. How deeply rooted it was and how it was influencing a lot of my behavior. I sat with this. I was, I had a conversation last night with a friend of mine who has been present with me for a lot of my teenage years. And coming out of that, basically just going through a whole process of, like, hustle culture. And they reflected me last night just like Connor. Yeah, man, I remember. It seems like you just really haven't given yourself a chance to just fully relax.

Connor Bell [00:31:35]:
And they just see me just go, go, go for so long. And there was this, there was this deeply rooted part that even when I derailed from that strategy, from that way of being, I would. This part that still lived within me, this, like, this achiever, this succeeder, it would just almost take over. It would just complete, it would continue the pattern perpetually. And it seems like at large, just with the whole climate of the election going on this year and stuff like that, the things that are being said, the things that are being illuminated are just like. It's literally the question that's being raised is, is it time to rewrite the values of our nation? Like, or what was the original. What was the original intention behind the values that were created? Like, with our constitution and with our forefathers and everything? And how have we. How have those been distorted and, like, you know, you know, how have those changed? Because I think they.

Connor Bell [00:32:49]:
I think there is some, like, deep rooted truth of what I think. Again, things were a lot simpler there. Like, they definitely were trying to be asked to make a name for themselves, maybe. Again, I didn't live back then, but I guess, like, when did scale come about? I feel like when we created the constitution, we had, like, the, the founding fathers and everything. I don't think they were. I don't think one of their intentions was scale. I don't think that. I think they just wanted to a greater sense of freedom, and they came here to establish that and to create that.

Connor Bell [00:33:20]:
It wasn't about scale. I don't think they desired to be England. I think they saw the corruption in that and they didn't want. I don't think they wanted to, like, grow and, like, prove themselves to be like, there definitely was this scrappy, you know, the revolution and stuff like that when they were seceding and stuff, and getting their independence. I think that was just more like the child, like, the rebel child. I don't think. I think they knew the corruption that happened at scale. Like, seeing England being the power that it was, and I don't think they wanted that.

Connor Bell [00:33:52]:
But at some point, scale came into the play and scale became a.

Vision Battlesword [00:33:58]:
Value is another word for scale. Empire.

Connor Bell [00:34:02]:
I've seen that theme a lot recently.

Vision Battlesword [00:34:06]:
At some point, did a budding young republic accidentally slip on a banana peel and slide down the hill into becoming what it once rebelled against? Which is to say, a global empire, like the British Empire that it broke away from.

Connor Bell [00:34:25]:
Yeah, but still advertising, like, the original values and, like, still trying to honor those, but not like, actually embodying them at the core. I feel that it's funny because I was at the theater the other day and all of the trailers that I saw, there was a common theme in all of them. Like, literally the titles, multiple titles or subtitles of these movies that are coming out. Empire were in all the titles, and one was also civil war. There's literally a movie coming out called Civil War. It's so funny how like, when there's this subliminal just idea of like, oh, like, worst case scenario, you know, whether it was like AI or something, it's. It's almost like Hollywood will just kind of like, foreshadow it or something. They'll just, they'll, they'll create that.

Connor Bell [00:35:20]:
They'll create like a piece of mediaev. It's just like, hey, this is what it could be like and feel like, worst case scenario, do we really want to go down this rabbit hole? And they'll create. So they literally have a movie called Civil War. Don't know what actually erupts it, but it's just like hinting at it.

Vision Battlesword [00:35:38]:
There's a concept that I've been kicking around for a number of years that I would love to actually have a structured conversation on sometime just to explore it. But in short, what if the media is like, the society's collective unconscious? Like these movies, books, tv shows, the storytelling of the culture? Is the culture dreaming and what's in our collective subconscious that we're dreaming about? This came up for me about twelve years ago, I think I gave a lecture at a salon here in Austin when I was noticing that the collective subconscious of society was obsessed with zombies. Do you remember when the whole zombie thing was just, you know, it was all zombies all the time, and that was just what everybody was obsessed with for some reason. And I noticed that and then it got me thinking and I started reflecting on other fads or memes that sweep through the media landscape and sweep through the collective unconscious and thinking about, what does that mean? Like, you're trying to analyze a dream that you had last night. Like, gosh, there was a sexy nurse, but I was on the planet Pluto, and this, that, and the other. And you're trying to do dream analysis of what is my subconscious trying to tell me? And I came up with this whole theoretical framework around it. In this particular case, you don't have to do a whole lot of analysis to figure out what we're worried about right now, or what we're afraid of right now, or maybe what we're seeing when we collectively, the society, looks in the mirror and sees our own reflection and goes like, whoa, wait, how did we get here from where we were 250 years ago? How did that happen? When did that happen? But I do think that's an expression of our collective values. So I'm curious to just bringing it back to that topic of values.

Vision Battlesword [00:37:51]:
What do you think were the original founding values of our society?

Connor Bell [00:37:55]:
What comes to mind is we, the people, meaning what?

Vision Battlesword [00:38:00]:
What's the substance behind that phrase?

Connor Bell [00:38:04]:
I think that it's just. It's like, whatever follows that phrase, it's like nothing matters unless it is prefaced with that phrase. Nothing has true substance or meaning or value unless it's. There's just an acknowledgement of the whole in a more human way. I think it's just a nod to, okay, whatever we're creating, is it for the whole or is it for the individual self? This is where I'm at.

Vision Battlesword [00:38:35]:
To me, that phrase points to maybe what might be the most fundamental core value of our society, which is self governance. I think that's the initial declaration, self governance of value, summarized in, I guess, the two. The two parallel phrases from the constitution or from the Declaration of Independence. You know, we the people, which begins the constitution, we hold these truths to be self evident. Which begins the declaration? That's the declaration. The declaration is, first and foremost, we govern ourselves. We reclaim our autonomy. We withdraw our consent from any prior agreements.

Vision Battlesword [00:39:21]:
We reclaim our autonomy. We're starting from scratch, and we get to create whatever society that we want. And at any point, if that's not serving us anymore, we get to have a do over. That's what we declare. We declare that as a natural God given right that we don't have to ask permission from anybody. We just have that. That's. That's what I think.

Vision Battlesword [00:39:43]:
If there's one fundamental core value underpinning this society, that we, at least as the way this society was created. I think that's it.

Connor Bell [00:39:52]:
Thank you for saying it in that way. Because I think dissonance, at least for me, was created because I never fully. The thing that again. And this comes all back to sovereignty talking, stuff like that, but just the constitution itself. I have never just sat down and truly dissected it and understood. And understood the constitution itself, the meaning behind all of it. Right. It was.

Connor Bell [00:40:23]:
It was created by, like, our. Again, our forefathers and these specific people that signed it and everything. And I guess they could represent. Yeah, like, like, yes. Like you said, this collective consciousness for this specific entity of self. And it's. Yeah, it's just like, for me, I I. It's like I almost signed up for something that I was getting on a ride that I wasn't fully prepared for.

Connor Bell [00:40:49]:
I don't know. I always like, am I getting on a roller coaster or am I getting on, you know, it's a wonderful. Or it's a small world after all, you know, like a Disney world.

Vision Battlesword [00:40:59]:
What's the ride?

Connor Bell [00:41:00]:
You're referring to the constitution.

Vision Battlesword [00:41:03]:
Okay.

Connor Bell [00:41:03]:
Like, just like, the operation, like this. This community, this country, this. And then again, I'm born into it, right? And then there's. Okay, cool. Yes. I'm this, like, infinite, you know, consciousness that is just like, okay, cool, I'm here now I'm gonna spend x amount of years or time, like, figuring out a role in this thing, and in order to do that, then they're like, okay, you know, these are the values. So it's like, again, they were like, there were even deeper values just set in the playing field. And then at some point, I was taught, like, oh, I could have my own values, and I was just kind of told what those were.

Connor Bell [00:41:47]:
I'm just, like, putting all these pieces together. Who told? Yeah, I would love to be. This is great, because I would love to actually go back to the constitution and really meditate on it.

Vision Battlesword [00:41:59]:
I recommend it. I recommend reading the constitution and reading the Declaration of Independence. They are, well, let's just call them classics of literature. I mean, it's not. I mean, it's a little bit dry and somewhat slightly legalistic. The declaration is less so. It's more of a call to action or document of inspiration. But the construction of those two pieces of language are just phenomenal.

Vision Battlesword [00:42:34]:
I mean, just. Just mind blowing in their elegance, precision, intelligence. You know, there's a reason why that has become. Has actually become the template of this entire concept of liberal democracy. That how sincere you feel that we really are in promoting that we, meaning the government of the United States of America, how sincere you feel that we or any other government is in truly promoting that in the 2020s, which I think there's a whole lot that's very flawed about the way we go about foreign policy and all that sort of stuff. But setting that aside, the reality of what's happened in the last 200 years of taking that template as the model for the vast majority of nation states or societies around the world, it's not wildly off base. It's a pretty good model that really hasn't been duplicated or improved on yet.

Connor Bell [00:43:42]:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, again, it's almost like it is this example of source material, and then, yeah, all these, like, cultures and religions were created, were, you know, aggregated from it, just like, you know, the sacred, sacred texts and then religion, you know, from those sacred texts. So, yeah, I'd like to do that. I think that'd be profound. So this is the question is I was. It's, yeah, they taught me to learn these things at a young age when I didn't even know myself. And so I think that's why I kind of glossed over it at a young age was because I think my soul just wanted to know itself.

Connor Bell [00:44:29]:
But then I was told I was being told all these other things, and they had, like, again, it was like, this very potent source material and had, like, that was very, I feel, like, very connected to truth and what my soul was seeking. Like, why, maybe if it had, like, the choice of being born at this time and in this country, it's like, would it make more sense for us to guide our children through that process of self discovery and self realization and anchoring your own values and then deciding, like, okay, what collective value system do I want to do I resonate most with? And do I want to contribute to discern, like, okay. Cause that's literally what I'm going through now. I feel like I've had to decondition all these things, and now I'm setting my own set of values, and then I'm like, okay. Cause I basically have been trying to, like, fill a role from set of values that I didn't fully resonate with. And that's why, like, the roles and the identities that I played have just nothing really made sense to me and why I've not really flourished in those roles. But so now I've, like, deconditioned all those identities and roles and values systems, and now I'm, like, establishing my own or, like, what's true for me and then now I'm creating a new identity from there, and then I'll like, okay, cool. Do I.

Connor Bell [00:45:56]:
Then I can choose, like, if I want to plug into. Now the role is clear that I want to play and that I can find the community or that I want to play that role in. Just seemed like when I was brought into the world, I did it backwards. And I've had, like, I'm, like, starting over. What if I just. What if our children just did that from the get go?

Vision Battlesword [00:46:18]:
I love that. I love that idea. I think you're right. You know, we as adults, you know, at the age that we are now, we are going through this process because we choose to, but we're going through this process of now having to deconstruct all of these values, all of this programming that we've inherited, even from, you know, through osmosis, because I don't think that we're really taught it in a rigorous way, which would be, my opinion would be. I think that would be good or beneficial, even just taking the constitution or the so called values of american society, which I think is an extension, particularly of the Bill of rights. I was just thinking off the top of my head here as you're talking like, yeah, if you want to know what the values are of american society, just read the Bill of rights. I think the constitution itself is really an elaborate way of speaking to one specific value, which is limited government. We have one big old value here, and that value is that we want to restrain the government as much as possible without breaking a functional society in the process.

Vision Battlesword [00:47:29]:
That's value number one. But then here's ten additional values, or really nine, because the last two are sort of the same. But here's ten. Here's ten additional values that really speak to. This is the core DNA of our society. It's about freedom of speech and freedom of expression. It's about freedom of religion. It's about freedom to gather together in groups.

Vision Battlesword [00:47:52]:
It's about privacy. It's about justice and the rule of law. You get the idea. But first of all, we're not really taught it that way. We're just sort of like, as children, we're just supposed to kind of soak up our value system by osmosis through the environment. Or maybe. Maybe our parents do actually teach us, indoctrinate us in a more explicit way with certain values that our families, you know, hold to be true or hold to have importance. But I certainly don't remember as a child, whether in school or in my family of origin, or anywhere.

Vision Battlesword [00:48:34]:
I certainly don't recall being encouraged to go on a journey of self exploration to discover what I feel to be true, what I think my own personal values are, and maybe being exposed to. Hey, here are some different value systems that exist in the world or that have existed throughout history. This is the value system that we generally agree to, to live in, and to be a part of this specific society. But here's a sort of a value system that maybe comes from a philosophy called Buddhism, and here's a different value system that maybe comes from a philosophy called Christianity. And maybe here's a different value system that comes from any form of secular philosophy, like a rationalist perspective or whatever. But what do you think is right? Or what feels right to you in your heart, or what do you personally resonate with? And maybe let's talk those things through and create. Like, what if we helped to your point about, what if we helped children to really create and then give them also the tools to maintain, to update, to evolve their own personal core value system and really take that through life with them? How different would we be?

Connor Bell [00:49:54]:
Yeah. Having a non denominational platform and that being invited. And I feel like that I just created that. In a sense, I found it in entrepreneurship. It's like entrepreneurship almost, but then that became almost religion itself almost. And that had a specific values, core value system and culture and things like that that I'm rewriting now, too. So it's like I kept trying to find a tribe or like an environment where I could just freely explore those things and I would get caught up in, and I just realized it was another web that I was in.

Vision Battlesword [00:50:41]:
It's almost like there's critical thinking in general, but we could also cultivate critical thinking around values.

Connor Bell [00:50:49]:
Oh, yeah. And again, just how to navigate them, you know, because trying to think, it does seem like there's this, at least for myself, there's this pressure around values and, like, having to have them to be able to thrive and to be able to actually create something worthwhile and meaningful and sustainable. And the pressure around, oh, how long do I need to, like, actually water this particular thing, this particular value in my life? Like you said, it's just getting. It's just getting clear on what's it for? What are you wanting to experience and then actually seeing that through and actually honoring it fully? Just the discernment of, have I honored this fully in my life, or am I abandoning it for something else that's not really aligned? Or, you know? Yeah, I think that's been my personal struggle or challenge with values is when I revisit it. You know, when do I know to update this software, you know? Or is it too soon? Or, like, yeah, am I just avoiding actually fulfilling this fully, or am I actually complete with this? Do I feel fulfilled in this value, what it's created in my life? Yeah, I'm just voicing these, I guess, insecurities around values. What about you?

Vision Battlesword [00:52:20]:
So there's a number of things coming up for me as you've been talking. One is, I do a lot of work and play in the relationship space, as you know, with my IAR framework. And one area of that whole, the, you know, the dimension, the whole dimension of life called relationships that I haven't spent a lot of time exploring within the context of my. Of my program is values. And one reason is because I sort of. I think there's. There's already a lot that's been done in that space. There's.

Vision Battlesword [00:52:57]:
There's, like, other people that. That have really focused on values and compatibility and things of that nature, and I'm doing something different, but I think there's. There's something really, really important about relational values. Meaning, as you've been talking, you're talking about, you know, you're creating your own personal value system and finding things that you're aligned to. And so the question that's coming up to me, for me as you're talking is, okay, now, what happens when we bump up against other people who don't share our same values? And then, of course, that naturally snowballs into relationships for me, another thing that's coming up is children. We're talking about children and how we might do a better job or do a different type of job for helping people to have a better sense of what values are, how to create a value system for themselves, how to get exposed to different systems of values without being, like, necessarily specifically indoctrinated into one specific value set and then not really made aware that there's an opportunity to choose until much later in life, like, even into adulthood. Like, this happens to so many people, right? The values of your original family or the values of your religion or the values of your community are sort of oftentimes taught to you as a child, as, like, no, this is the right way. These are, these are values.

Vision Battlesword [00:54:30]:
And then you hit college, you hit adulthood, you hit whatever point you hit where you go, like, hey, wait a second. That's not right. There's all these other possibilities out there. And then oftentimes, we may go through a rebellious phase of you know, oh, I'm going to reject Christianity, or I'm going to reject the value of discipline that I grew up with in my family or the value of whatever that may be and kind of go with a. Go into an antithesis phase where maybe it's possible that we can streamline that a little bit more to help people kind of move into a healthy relationship with values and their own autonomy and their value set. But additionally, I want to acknowledge that children up to a certain age, it's probably not appropriate for children up to a certain age to just be given, like, a blank check with values, you know, because there's a certain amount of maturity and personal development, psychological development that a child needs to go through where a certain amount of structure or there's a certain amount of openness or questioning that's actually not helpful for childhood development. It seems to me, at a certain level, there's a. Yeah, you know, these are some values that are going to serve you very well and would be best to adopt for now, especially around getting along in society, getting along in our family, getting along in community.

Connor Bell [00:56:04]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:56:05]:
Being virtuous to a certain level.

Connor Bell [00:56:07]:
Yeah. Like you said, as long as that's prefaced, you know, like, it's almost like, here. Here are your. Here are your set of values that are like placeholders until you're ready to set, until your mind is ready to conceptualize your own.

Vision Battlesword [00:56:23]:
I love that.

Connor Bell [00:56:23]:
And, okay, this is coming again to one of my favorite topics, which we are actually going to. We said we were going to talk about, and we're inevitably getting to it. It's like there's values. And I feel like the process of play is. It's a process of formulating values, almost. Cause I've been living with a one year old for the past week or so, and I feel like that is what I'm actually witnessing. I am witnessing this baby traverse and explore his environment. And he is using all these different sensory stimuli to figure out what he values and, like, what he wants to, like.

Connor Bell [00:57:16]:
Experience and play is the process. It's that process of practicing curiosity and participating in life instead of just being. So instead of just being like a witness to it, like a bystander. Babies are constantly playing because they're constantly engaging with life. They're constantly participating in life. And so, yeah, you're right. Like, whenever they're, you know, putting something in their mouth, they're not thinking like, oh, this tastes good, I value this. I don't think they're actually going through that, but they haven't even thought of the concept of a value, right? They're just like, mmm, this doesn't taste good.

Connor Bell [00:58:00]:
Not gonna do that again. Or this tastes good. I'm gonna do this more. Right? So it's like I say, we can learn from them so much because it's like, I think sometimes we'll get stuck in this bubble of potential and we'll be like, huh? Do I value, do I want, do I want to experience this less? Do I want to experience this more? Do I value this? And for a baby, it's just really clear. It's just like, nope, don't want that anymore. And then they'll cry if, like, whenever they're feeding him, obviously, like, they're developing, you know, like, language with the hands and stuff to say, like, more, or all done, or whatever. But mostly he's just like, he'll just, like, cry. Like, no, man, I don't want any more of that.

Connor Bell [00:58:44]:
Like, I'm good. I don't want to experience any more of that. I don't value that anymore or whatever. And I think it's just allowing us to actually, again, honor those in a practical way so that we can get that feeling feedback loop. And sometimes we need more data to, like, actually decide whether that's something we value. We want to continue to honor and develop and explore like babies again. They just. They don't have that.

Connor Bell [00:59:13]:
They don't have, like the commentator, right? So they're just. It's just been invaluable, like, spending time with that baby. And it's put. It's the reason why I think I am so connected with dance and why I think I'm so connected with movement and things of that nature and, like, climbing trees and stuff in nature. It's just, it's just an immediate feedback loop of I'm imagining something that I want to experience and then that manifesting in a very quick feedback loop. And then I'm able to decide how much I value it, what I can, I can identify what I enjoy experiencing, what I don't, and what I value and what I don't have. Behaviorally. Curious how you're receiving that.

Vision Battlesword [00:59:57]:
I'm receiving it very well. My thought process has been very, very highly stimulated from everything you've been saying, starting from very much love that concept, that kind of synthesis of what we've been talking about with regard to child rearing and childhood development, of the idea of helping kids put some placeholders of value to help them to structure their lives and have meaningful relationships and go through the growing process while not rigidly indoctrinating them to the point that those values become stuck or ossified or feel like something that they didn't choose for themselves, that then later on in life, might get rejected, go through some sort of a period of, let's say, like a pendulum swinging wildly before someone settles into their own comfort level with their own value system. And I'm loving that. The piece that you're bringing forward, starting from the model of that one year old child that you're spending time with, to what we value, if we're really, really peeling back the layers of what we value, is an expression of, I would like to experience more of that. I would like to experience less of that at a very, very fundamental, at a very primal level. And I'm also kind of seeing how the value system that we live in is inherently nested. Do you see what I mean? Where we are living within the bubble of our society, and there's a center of gravity, there's a collective consciousness at the level of society, which is a value system that we are living within and we're contributing to. And we may not be fully, like, 100% in alignment with whatever that homogeneous average of values of our society is, or like what we were talking about before.

Vision Battlesword [01:02:04]:
Maybe it's not even a homogenous average of the collective consciousness of all the people living today, but it's something that was written down 250 years ago, but that still forms the foundation of our society, because it's baked into our legal system, and it's baked into our educational system, and it's baked into our media and our songs and our traditions and all of these different ways that we continue to get programmed and reprogrammed.

Connor Bell [01:02:29]:
That's a great word, baked.

Vision Battlesword [01:02:30]:
Yeah, that we continue to receive and pass down this specific value set through time generationally. But then there's inner. There's. There's, like, concentric circles or nested spheres of the values that get closer and closer and closer from our community to our friend groups, to the organizations that we function within, to our family, and then ultimately to our own individual, personal value system that are all kind of, like, entangled, you know? And there was another thing that was coming up around relationships and relative values, meaning, like, the idea that started to concern me a little bit before we fleshed it out around. Well, maybe it's not. Maybe it's not a super great idea to teach kids from a very, very, very early age that you can have any values that you want, and that it's all completely personal, and that it's based on what feels good and what resonates for you. And because that reflects to me on almost like there is an expression of that, that idea happening in our culture today through postmodern woke. You know, everything is morally relative kind of these kind of ideas.

Vision Battlesword [01:03:54]:
It's like, well, that's my personal truth and that's what's true for me. And, you know, these are my values and their is equally valid as yours, but you have to respect mine. And you, in fact, not only have to respect mine, but you have to accommodate my values because they're mine and they're expressions of me and my uniqueness. And there's a point in which that becomes dysfunctional. There's a point in which that breaks down at a level of society, maybe even at a personal level. At some point, we have to agree on some values to have relationship. Right?

Connor Bell [01:04:30]:
Yeah, yeah. At large. Yeah. And again, I always talk about this process of self harmonization. So just like really, really getting to know, like, all parts of you and how, and then again, Nicole, how can you create an ecosystem wherever all parts of you harmonize? I think it's the same thing globally, right? There's this global organism, there's this global consciousness, and we all have these personal set of values. I do feel like, yeah, there's a specific number of individuals out there that also share those, and it's us finding each other. And then I, those factions of value systems, then they're all able to harmonize, which is like, I guess, what we've been trying to do as countries and things like that with that system, but hasn't quite fully harmonized.

Vision Battlesword [01:05:26]:
Well, I think I see at least there's something that I'm, there's a thread that I'm pulling out of what you just said, which is interesting, the idea that we might be in the process of creating some level of coherence as a global consciousness, or at least around some shared set of values where I can feel confident if I go anywhere with anyone that there's certain things that we're all agreeing on, like we're coming into maybe something we never have fully had before, which is a global value set, which is not to say that we all share the exact same set of values, but that we all have, like, a common denominator of values, right.

Connor Bell [01:06:08]:
Which is supposed to be housed in, like, the United nations, right. Or something like that. Is it supposed to exist right now? But it.

Vision Battlesword [01:06:16]:
Well, I think now you're bringing the idea of governance into it.

Connor Bell [01:06:22]:
That's more governance, I'm thinking.

Vision Battlesword [01:06:26]:
Yeah.

Connor Bell [01:06:26]:
Okay.

Vision Battlesword [01:06:27]:
I suppose we could, like, perhaps.

Connor Bell [01:06:29]:
Yeah, you're right. Cause those are more just representatives.

Vision Battlesword [01:06:32]:
I think you're right. I think that is the idea behind the universe.

Connor Bell [01:06:35]:
Yeah. I don't know. Have we.

Vision Battlesword [01:06:36]:
I'm just not sure if it's working. Yeah.

Connor Bell [01:06:37]:
Have we given ourselves. Yeah. Have we given ourselves the opportunity? And I think now we actually have the mediums of which we can communicate better. Like, we're literally creating that with IaR and things like that. We haven't had the technology to, like, effectively do that.

Vision Battlesword [01:06:54]:
Yeah. Right. Well, especially the technology of literal communications, meaning like the Internet and telecommunications. They're really. Yeah. It seems to me that there's a certain level of speed of communication below which there's not a sufficient amount of mixing of ideas, of consciousness, of culture globally, for that kind of global consciousness or value system to emerge. But now, firewalls notwithstanding, I can have a conversation with anyone in the world, theoretically, and start to understand their. Sorry.

Vision Battlesword [01:07:34]:
I can start to stand with or understand their values and start to see how they align to my own.

Connor Bell [01:07:41]:
And I think it's happening. I think it's happening. I think the things that, again, the polarity that the shadows and stuff of the media is shining the light on, I think it's kind of like maybe the final pieces, if you will, that are transmuting. I think the majority are just ready for this process to take place.

Vision Battlesword [01:08:03]:
Yeah, yeah, I agree with that. There's one other piece to this that I find really interesting. We probably don't have time to fully expand it, but just at least drop it in conversation, which is kind of like quantification of value. Like, well, first of all, through the course of our conversation, I'm starting to realize that I think the word value is a lot like some of the other words that we explore on sacred conversations, or like love, where it's one word that is really too small to encapsulate all of the. All of the things that we're trying to put into that container. You know, I think it's. It seems to me that. That the word value, we're using this word in a lot of different ways, in a lot of different senses and contexts that maybe is, you know, maybe it's an overworked word, but there's also, like, love, a sense in which it does tie a lot of things together, seemingly dissimilar things together, together in a weird sort of way, where there is some kind of, like, nexus of the concept.

Vision Battlesword [01:09:14]:
But like, what I'm noticing is we place a certain level of value on different things. Like, I might, for example, value honesty above all else. But what exactly does that mean? And, or, like, in the monetary sense, like in my conversation with David, how do we decide how much we value any particular thing or service or experience? And how. And can those two things even overlap? Could I place a value in a monetary sense, on a concept as ephemeral as honesty or integrity or truth? Can you place, how do you decide how in your life to value dance versus play versus philosophy? And the reason I like just kind of openly wondering about these things is because I feel that this is so core to our harmony or our conflict in relationships interpersonally and in the grand scale as well. It's like you and I are having a relationship, let's. Let's say, and we both agree that honesty is very important to us, but you value dance far more than I do, and maybe that creates tension in our relationship, you know, because you would like to spend a lot more time dancing. And I like dance, okay. But, like, I would personally, I'm much more passionate about and would like to spend a lot more of my time playing board games.

Vision Battlesword [01:10:50]:
Or perhaps you value money and abundance and wealth and material things, and I don't value them as much. And what's to me, you know, more, more important to me is having very meaningful personal experiences or having quiet, private time for contemplation. And I can do that anywhere. I don't need a fancy environment for that or high tech toys or anything like that. And that could create tension in our relationship, because ultimately the tension becomes, where do we put our energy? Where do we place our attention, as you put it earlier in the conversation? And I sort of see those kind of value differences and the conflicts that they create playing out on a grander scale in society.

Connor Bell [01:11:42]:
Oh, yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:11:43]:
Does that make sense?

Connor Bell [01:11:45]:
Makes a lot of sense.

Vision Battlesword [01:11:46]:
So what do you do about that?

Connor Bell [01:11:48]:
Yeah, I mean, I think it definitely is. When you're thinking about the quantification piece of it, I immediately, of course, went to iar and how you've quantified that and how I've applied that to my life and how it's been instrumental in me. Yeah. Again, making the process of what I value and how I practice it that much more palpable. And I, because then I realize, and I. So this is also, I've applied this in a way to even my own process that I do with people is, again, we just kind of intuitively pour out. Yeah. Like, what are these things that I value.

Connor Bell [01:12:26]:
Okay, cool. And you can put them on a number system, and then you can put them on a number system as well. Like, okay, you know, where would it be on the scale of fulfillment or wholeness or. Yeah, just like, whatever you're ultimately seeking to experience through this. This value. And I'm even thinking of it in the context of certain relationships that I'm reevaluating now. Right. I'm like, okay, the relationships I'm still giving attention to, why am I still giving attention to them? Because if I'm not giving attention to that, if I'm giving attention to that, then I'm not giving attention to these other things.

Connor Bell [01:13:09]:
So then I guess putting it on a spectrum can objectify it. And then the tools that I've learned through iar and authentic relating is, like, is, okay, then vocalizing those, the truth of how I've organized those values to the people that I've created, you know, maybe unconscious contracts with or, you know, and just objectively, like, presenting that and then being able to navigate again, all, like, just the needs and the desires and just make sure that that's what I've been doing. I've been revisiting all those relationships and then finding a place of closure, coherence, in some way. And then that's just opened up so much. Like, I can feel the valley like the sun, the sun rising, like, over this new valley of opportunity. And so my awareness is, like, peaking into these new values that have been so real for me, that have been so true to me. And so I am going through that process now. And so I appreciate you raising the question of the quantitative part, because that is a really important part of it.

Vision Battlesword [01:14:23]:
I think it's really interesting what you said about putting a number to things. I've done that before. You know, I've created, like, an exercise almost taking, like, a consultative approach, like, something I might have done in my. In my tech career, in my business consulting career, and really helping an organization to quantify what's truly important to them or how to value different departments or functions or lines of business in their organization for planning purposes or, you know, organizational purposes, but taking that into my own life in a decision making process and really, like, saying, okay, well, like, if I had to put a number to this, what would it be? I don't know. I'll even create an arbitrary scale, one to ten, whatever. If I had to put a number to this, what would it be? If I had to put a number to this, what would it be? And that exercise can be very revealing. It can be very illuminating because we sort of live in this, almost like this murkiness of ambiguity. And it's very intuitive.

Vision Battlesword [01:15:21]:
It could be very emotional, the way that we place value on things, but we haven't really thought about it deeply. Maybe we're just kind of going with our gut or going with our heart. And I don't say that to diminish those ways of thinking by any stretch, but it can be interesting to see a reflection from the intellect on it. And it occurred to me that that would be a very, very interesting process to include in a democracy. You know, like the way that our so called democracy, which is not really a democracy, but the way that our so called republican system works is that we elect, we vote, but what we do is we vote for people to represent our interests, to represent our values especially. So people come out and they give speeches and they write, write articles and information and say, this is what I believe, this is what I value. These are the kind of decisions that I would make, and put your trust in me to make these decisions on your behalf. That's how our system works.

Vision Battlesword [01:16:30]:
But what if part of our electoral system was a survey of values? What if we went to the polls and were given a ballot to rank? How much importance do you place on privacy, reproductive freedom, economic freedom, taxes versus government services, etcetera?

Connor Bell [01:16:51]:
Wow.

Vision Battlesword [01:16:52]:
And then what if, you know, what if we were to get that data, that actual data of like, what are the direct wishes, sensibilities, values of the people who make up this society, and then use that at least as a part of a basis for governance? That'd be interesting, huh.

Connor Bell [01:17:12]:
I wonder if that's what was, in practice, or at least proposed in greek society, when the idea of democracy was at scale, done with the Greeks. It's interesting because that's also when Socrates was doing his thing. And even though there was this system and these people trying to, like, acquire power or just like. Or being representatives for certain ideals, Socrates is almost like he kind of represented that part of it. Like, he was more speaking to. He was just in the streets having conversations in the marketplace all the time about more of the values than the focus on the people, you know, than the representatives, you know, he was, he was more. He was more like massaging the conversations around the ideas and the values themselves. And then they all.

Connor Bell [01:18:11]:
They would also welcome, I understand they would also welcome him into those conversations sometimes, too, like the actual govern governance conversations. So, yeah, I feel like when you do that, you're right, it provides a lot more metadata, like, transcendent data to continue to evolve. You know, instead of getting stuck. I think that's kind of like where. Maybe where our country got, like, they didn't provide, like, a system like that that was. That was allowed it to transcend itself and evolve. So, yeah, the quantitative piece is huge. I agree.

Vision Battlesword [01:18:47]:
Yeah. I could almost see it being almost like a part of a census process, maybe instead of an election.

Connor Bell [01:18:53]:
A census? Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:18:55]:
You know, as part of the census. It's like, I don't know. The census survey. Well, first of all, you're not obligated, I just want you to know, and anyone else to know, that you're not obligated to complete that thing, which I think I find it to be very intrusive.

Connor Bell [01:19:09]:
All the complete what thing?

Vision Battlesword [01:19:10]:
The census. The ten year census survey that they send out.

Connor Bell [01:19:14]:
I didn't even know about that.

Vision Battlesword [01:19:15]:
Yeah. Oh, well, good for you, anyway. But I think it'd be a lot more interesting than the kind of real intrusive, privacy violating questions that they ask on the census that you do not have to respond to, by the way. It'd be a lot more interesting if they asked me what I value, what I care about, what I'm interested in, and then actually use that information to help form their opinions and judgments about how we would like to be governed or, you know, what type of. What type of representation that we'd like to have. It's really kind of interesting. It's really kind of telling that there seems to be very little interest. Like, there's a.

Vision Battlesword [01:19:58]:
There's, you know, our politicians, our so called leaders and representatives say the phrase the american people want. The american people believe a lot, but I don't remember ever being asked. Yeah, kind of interesting.

Connor Bell [01:20:12]:
Right.

Vision Battlesword [01:20:13]:
Well, this. This whole conversation for me has been very, very interesting, and I feel like I've really expanded my own personal awareness about the whole concept of value and values. Just wondering if you have any closing thoughts or last words.

Connor Bell [01:20:31]:
Yeah. And the closing thought comes back to the idea of transcendence in a way of, okay, it doesn't have to be this or that. It could be, again, this more meta idea. And if the playing field doesn't exist, to be able to explore that, maybe I feel called to create it. Maybe I feel called to establish it. And I think you've done that in many ways with. With sacred light. Right.

Connor Bell [01:21:01]:
I think there were. There were questions, these, like, collective, ethereal questions that were seeking to have answers to them that didn't really exist. And even on this. With this platform, with sacred conversations, you created a platform for them to be explored and for them to unlock these newfound perspectives. And then we get to continue evolving it and relaying it, and I playing with it. And this particular one's been really fun.

Vision Battlesword [01:21:37]:
It's been really fun for me, too.

Connor Bell [01:21:39]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:21:40]:
And thanks for that reflection and also just to tie a bow on it. You know, when you were talking about Socrates a moment ago, like, I really look at this as a modern form of that. You know, that's, like, that's. I certainly very much look up to, you know, and inspired by, in many ways, the legacy of Socrates and his life and his philosophy and this kind of dialogue, this earnest truth seeking. That's what. That's what I think, really, quote unquote socratic dialogue, if you want, you know, to call it something. That's what it is. It's earnest truth seeking, in my opinion.

Vision Battlesword [01:22:24]:
And that's what I feel that we're doing here. And I think it also reveals my deepest core value, which is truth. That really is what it is for me. And seeking the truth is just so much fun. And I really enjoy the intimacy that it helps me build with all of you in the sacred life community. So thank you so much for being a part of it.

Connor Bell [01:22:50]:
Absolutely. And last thing that I would add to that is honoring truth even in the face of this is what Socrates did, right? Like, apparently, he even died for what he believed was true and voicing that. And that's why I have admiration for figures like, again, like Gandhi, like MLK, like Jesus, like, in the face. In the face of prosecution, you know, and all these things, and they still stood centered in truth no matter what.

Vision Battlesword [01:23:31]:
That's very true.

Connor Bell [01:23:34]:
And that's what I'm here to embody more in this. And just being here in this conversation with you has been a practice of that. So thank you. Thank you, vision.

Vision Battlesword [01:23:44]:
Let's do it again soon.

Connor Bell [01:23:46]:
I love that.

Vision Battlesword [01:23:47]:
Thanks, brother.