Vision Battlesword [00:00:02]:
Good afternoon, doctor Mason.

Robert Mason [00:00:04]:
Not quite a doctor yet, but we'll get there one day.

Vision Battlesword [00:00:07]:
You're my doctor.

Robert Mason [00:00:09]:
A medicine doctor. A witch doctor.

Vision Battlesword [00:00:12]:
Who are you? Robert Mason.

Robert Mason [00:00:14]:
Um. Boy, I'm just me. I know a lot of things that I'm not. I'm not an investment banker. I'm not an intelligence officer. I'm just a guy who is trying to make it in the world and help others do the same.

Vision Battlesword [00:00:31]:
And I love you for that. And you are a good friend of mine. I'm really grateful to have this relationship with you and to have these amazing conversations with you that we've decided to start keeping track of.

Robert Mason [00:00:50]:
Keeping a record of that thought is received and reciprocated, my friend. Thank you very much. Always a gracious host when I'm down here in Austin.

Vision Battlesword [00:01:01]:
Thank you. Well, I'm Vision Battlesword, and I discovered the other day when I was recording a podcast with my good friend Courtney that I do not have an elegant, succinct elevator pitch self promotional script, let's just say. So I'll just introduce myself as your co host, Vision. I like to consider. I'm considering what we're doing right now to be a Sacred Conversation, and let's just see where it goes.

Robert Mason [00:01:37]:
Looking forward to it. We've been talking about doing this for a long time.

Vision Battlesword [00:01:40]:
We have.

Robert Mason [00:01:41]:
Nice to finally see things manifesting in 2024.

Vision Battlesword [00:01:44]:
Here we are. Good way to start the new year.

Robert Mason [00:01:46]:
Amen.

Vision Battlesword [00:01:48]:
Do you want to talk about trust?

Robert Mason [00:01:50]:
Let's do it.

Vision Battlesword [00:01:51]:
Does that sound fun to you?

Robert Mason [00:01:52]:
Yes, it does.

Vision Battlesword [00:01:53]:
Earlier, before we sat down to get started with this, you said a phrase, truth and trust. I don't remember exactly the context of what that popped out of, but I thought that was interesting to. To bring those two words together as at least a part of unified concept. So I don't know if that's a direction we're eventually going to go in, but I'm very curious just to explore the idea of trust with you, and especially, you know, starting from where we started from, which was a kind of a situation or a scenario, which I think everyone has experienced, and I know that you and I both have experienced very recently, which is a question of how to repair trust or how to rebuild trust. But that, for me, that leads to an even perhaps more preliminary question, which is, what is trust? How do we define that?

Robert Mason [00:03:04]:
That's a good question. I don't have a textbook definition of it. I would say trust and faith are closely related. Trust is maybe the ability to have faith, and I'm going to bring truth back into it. Faith in the truth that is coming at you from an outside source.

Vision Battlesword [00:03:33]:
Say that again. Faith is.

Robert Mason [00:03:37]:
Trust is the ability to have faith in the truth coming to you from an external source. I think that's where I arrived.

Vision Battlesword [00:03:48]:
Trust is the ability to have faith in the truth that's coming to you from an outside source. Interesting. So that has something to do with belief, is that right?

Robert Mason [00:04:01]:
Yes, it absolutely does.

Vision Battlesword [00:04:04]:
And faith is what? Faith is believing something implicitly.

Robert Mason [00:04:11]:
I like that.

Vision Battlesword [00:04:13]:
Okay, so trust, in the sense that you just described it, related to faith and truth. Trust has to do with your ability to believe someone? Ultimately, yes. That's. That's really where the faith is, the linkage between trust and truth.

Robert Mason [00:04:33]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:04:34]:
Because you. You believe them, correct in some way?

Robert Mason [00:04:38]:
Yeah, absolutely.

Vision Battlesword [00:04:39]:
I see.

Robert Mason [00:04:40]:
I like that definition.

Vision Battlesword [00:04:42]:
Interesting. So. So what's truth?

Robert Mason [00:04:47]:
Truth is. Oh, boy. So I've been reading a lot of the fifth agreement lately, which talks a ton about truth.

Vision Battlesword [00:04:56]:
The masterpiece by Don Miguel Ruiz.

Robert Mason [00:04:59]:
Truth is anything that is absolute for all people, regardless of their personal belief system.

Vision Battlesword [00:05:10]:
Oh, wow. Okay. So it's very objective. Truth is.

Robert Mason [00:05:16]:
Truth is objective.

Vision Battlesword [00:05:18]:
Truth is objective in that frame.

Robert Mason [00:05:21]:
I think that's actually a line in the book. Truth is objective. Yes.

Vision Battlesword [00:05:24]:
Well, that's very interesting. If we insert that definition of truth, or something similar to it, into the definition of trust, as you laid it out, that makes things very interesting to me. Because if truth is that which is accurate, let's say, regardless of any particular frame of reference, regardless of any particular perspective or subjective interpretation, then that puts a really heavy burden on any relationship based on trust, doesn't it?

Robert Mason [00:06:05]:
It can. I believe that would have to do largely with one's personal definition around the symbols that we all accept, whether they're words or iconography, as they manifest in our own personal narratives. And to build trust in a relationship, there's a certain amount of agreement in definition that has to be there, because anything other than truth which is objective is a narrative, a story, a dream that we build in our own minds and is subjective, based on our own personal belief systems and experiences.

Vision Battlesword [00:07:05]:
Right. Well, that. That piece that you just said at the end there about our own personal belief systems and experiences reminds me of. Well, let me rephrase that. There's a lot of people say these days, well, that's my truth versus your truth. Is there such a thing as a personal truth? In other words, meaning the facts? Let's just say, as I understand them through my personal belief system and experiences, we'll call that a subjective truth or a personal truth, is that a real thing?

Robert Mason [00:07:46]:
I think it is, as long as you use the modifier personal.

Vision Battlesword [00:07:50]:
Yeah. Okay.

Robert Mason [00:07:51]:
Yes.

Vision Battlesword [00:07:52]:
Right. So if someone is. Well, we're about to bring up another word here, I believe, which is honest.

Robert Mason [00:08:00]:
Sure.

Vision Battlesword [00:08:02]:
Which we'll have to unpack that word. But if someone is honest about their truth, is that sufficient for trust as opposed to being in alignment or integrity with some idea of universal truth, which I don't know. It's not clear to me that that is knowable by anyone. Except God, perhaps.

Robert Mason [00:08:28]:
Sure. So I'm saying, phrase that question one more time.

Vision Battlesword [00:08:34]:
Okay, so let's dial back to trust is. And again, I'm not necessarily agreeing with this. I'm just. I'm just exploring it with you. But. But what you told me is that trust is having faith in another person's. That another person from an external being. True or.

Robert Mason [00:08:51]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:08:52]:
Yes. Right. That it's having faith in the truth that you're receiving from outside of yourself. Correct?

Robert Mason [00:09:01]:
Yes, sir.

Vision Battlesword [00:09:02]:
Okay, so what I'm saying is if everybody has their own personal truth, if someone is representing that to you in good faith, good faith meaning honestly, without deception, without ulterior motives.

Robert Mason [00:09:22]:
No. Malicious intent.

Vision Battlesword [00:09:23]:
Without malicious intent, is that sufficient for trust? That's my question.

Robert Mason [00:09:28]:
I think this is where the old adage communication is key, comes into play. Because we have to be aligned on meaning, because what's true for me may not be true for you. That's why it's personal truth as opposed to universal or absolute truth. And so for anything I say to you about my personal truth, to be accepted as your personal truth and your inner dialogue, your personal programming, personal dream, you have to understand the words that I'm conveying in that moment. And have. We have to have agreement on what the meaning of what is being said is.

Vision Battlesword [00:10:26]:
I like that phrasing. The word understand is a little charged for me for reasons that we could have a lot of fun exploring, probably, but, yeah, I like what you just said there. Yeah. In order for us to have communication, productive communication, let's say it's important for us to have agreement on the meaning of the words correct that we're using. Correct.

Robert Mason [00:10:53]:
Correct.

Vision Battlesword [00:10:54]:
And what does that have to do with my question about personal truth as it pertains to trust?

Robert Mason [00:11:01]:
So, personal truth, maybe this comes back to the word faith. It's the belief system.

Vision Battlesword [00:11:08]:
The word faith seems to be particularly important to this concept, doesn't it?

Robert Mason [00:11:11]:
Yes. Yeah, I think so. Because it ties into one's belief system and we're not all programmed the same. So different words can mean different things to us. They may represent different things to us based on our personal experience, personal traumas, life path, and even goals. Maybe it's stuff that hasn't happened, but stuff that we are striving for. There might be an altered perception.

Vision Battlesword [00:11:52]:
Sure. Is it fair to say that our perception is shaped by all of those things you just mentioned?

Robert Mason [00:12:00]:
Absolutely.

Vision Battlesword [00:12:00]:
Our experiences, our belief system, our intentions, our desires?

Robert Mason [00:12:07]:
Yes, absolutely.

Vision Battlesword [00:12:09]:
So I'm curious if we're using the word faith. Well, my sense is that we have at least used the word faith in two different ways, and I'm curious about that. You've been using the word faith in the sense of to have faith. And I've had used it as part of the phrase to be in good faith. And for me, trust is deeply connected to this idea of good faith or being in good faith. As you know, I kind of briefly defined it earlier. So I think that's interesting, because for you, it sounds like faith as it's connected to trust has a lot to do with belief. And I guess it does for me, too.

Vision Battlesword [00:12:51]:
But it's like, what are we believing in? For me, I'm believing in, essentially your intentions. I'm believing in that your intentions are pure in the sense of not wanting to do me harm, being earnest, being sincere in communication with me, in honesty with me and so forth.

Robert Mason [00:13:19]:
And I would almost tie it to integrity, I think.

Vision Battlesword [00:13:27]:
Well, okay, but when you're saying to have faith in someone else's truth, or have faith in the truth of what you're receiving from someone or somewhere else, is that the same? Are we talking about the same thing, or are you talking about something different?

Robert Mason [00:13:43]:
Yeah, I think we're talking about the same thing.

Vision Battlesword [00:13:45]:
Okay.

Robert Mason [00:13:45]:
Yeah, it's based on belief, I think that's.

Vision Battlesword [00:13:48]:
But belief in the accuracy or belief in the intention, I think that's the distinction I'm noticing here.

Robert Mason [00:13:55]:
Belief in the accuracy.

Vision Battlesword [00:14:00]:
That's what I thought. So for you, you can have trust if you truly believe that whatever it is you're receiving is accurate, aka true.

Robert Mason [00:14:14]:
Correct.

Vision Battlesword [00:14:14]:
And for me, I can have trust if I believe that you're sincere, even if your information may be different than the information coming from another source, or the information as I understand it, or from my perspective.

Robert Mason [00:14:37]:
So maybe we are in fact talking about the same thing, because I would say the accuracy is based on my interpretation, my perception of the person or thing that I am receiving that information from, and my understanding of their knowledge and their perspective.

Vision Battlesword [00:15:01]:
Can you explain that a little more.

Robert Mason [00:15:04]:
Yeah. So you said it was based on more of the intention of the other person for me. For you, right. I think intention is certainly part of it. And so if faith for me, or faith based truth. Now, there's a phrase for me has. It is about the accuracy of the information, but it has a lot to do with my understanding of the communicators background and what their existence is. Where are they coming from?

Vision Battlesword [00:15:53]:
Is that another way of saying empathy?

Robert Mason [00:15:56]:
I don't know that it's empathy per se, but it does have to do with. With having some knowledge of the communicator, yes.

Vision Battlesword [00:16:10]:
Okay. This is interesting for me. So it would follow for me, correct me if I'm wrong, it would follow from that, that for you, it would take time to build trust with someone, because when you very, very first encounter a person, you don't know anything about their background, their experience, their perspective, their belief system. So you couldn't possibly have trust, because you couldn't at that. Until you've. Until you've come to understand them, then you couldn't have a belief system about the accuracy of their truth or their information. Is that right?

Robert Mason [00:16:50]:
I think in a very personal, like an intimate setting. Absolutely. But more on the nose in current society, just thinking about sales.

Vision Battlesword [00:17:04]:
Okay.

Robert Mason [00:17:06]:
So going to that intention without knowing the accuracy or without being able to know the accuracy of the information being conveyed because of lack of knowledge of the communicator, intention can absolutely come into play and act as a guideline until more information is known about that communicator.

Vision Battlesword [00:17:34]:
Hmm, interesting. Who or what do you trust in your life right now?

Robert Mason [00:17:44]:
I generally trust the people closest to me. That's why I keep them close to me or allow them to get close to me. My kids, my ex wife, my girlfriend, you. I'd say everybody in the inner sanctum. I have a lot of faith and trust in.

Vision Battlesword [00:18:11]:
What's the difference between faith and trust?

Robert Mason [00:18:15]:
Ooh, that's a good question. That's a really good question, my friend. We know, or we've arrived, I believe at the mutual understanding that faith is belief based. Trust is the ability to accept.

Vision Battlesword [00:18:39]:
Hmm.

Robert Mason [00:18:40]:
I was going to say communication, but I feel like trust is much broader than just communication.

Vision Battlesword [00:18:46]:
Yeah, that's what it seems like to me.

Robert Mason [00:18:48]:
Yeah. There's an amount of reliability from one person to another in trust.

Vision Battlesword [00:19:04]:
Are there different kinds of trust? Maybe this is one of those concepts that, like love, for example, you start trying to answer the question, what is love? And you discover that it's a whole lot of different things. Packaged into one word, which in many ways doesn't really make sense. I think in our language, maybe trust is the same, because don't we use. Isn't it true that we use the word trust to mean at least more than one, if not several fundamentally different concepts?

Robert Mason [00:19:43]:
Sure. Taking the banking definition out of it, like setting up a trust, which is a whole different use, but even that's.

Vision Battlesword [00:19:50]:
Interesting that that's the word for that thing.

Robert Mason [00:19:54]:
That's true.

Vision Battlesword [00:19:55]:
You know, and I think there's some root that that ties back to. No question that makes sense. But anyway. Yeah, how about this isn't. How about we even dial one notch further back and say, like, what are the different types of trust?

Robert Mason [00:20:13]:
Is it different types of trust? Or is it different levels of trust? How about layers of trust based on one's mastery of certain skills?

Vision Battlesword [00:20:29]:
I don't know, but the thought that I have would be just to start with, what are the different ways that we might use that word? For example, I trust what you're saying to me right now, or I trust that you'll be there for me if I need support.

Robert Mason [00:20:52]:
Sure.

Vision Battlesword [00:20:53]:
Or I trust this source of information. I trust the reliability of this equipment. Are these all actually the same thing, or are we actually using the word to mean different, fundamentally different things? That's what I'm not clear on.

Robert Mason [00:21:13]:
We use the word a lot in different ways.

Vision Battlesword [00:21:15]:
For sure.

Robert Mason [00:21:18]:
Like, you can have a trusting individual.

Vision Battlesword [00:21:21]:
Yeah.

Robert Mason [00:21:23]:
Who, to me, is one that is more likely to have faith in the external inputs around them.

Vision Battlesword [00:21:33]:
Okay. And let me rephrase that in my own language. I agree with you. And the way I would say it is, a trusting individual is someone who is more likely to believe in the good faith of others.

Robert Mason [00:21:50]:
Yes, absolutely.

Vision Battlesword [00:21:52]:
Although we both use the word faith, I just noticed. Yeah, that's funny. Interesting.

Robert Mason [00:21:58]:
So in all of the examples that you just gave, I do hear the faith or belief in the integrity of what that external source is.

Vision Battlesword [00:22:19]:
Belief in the integrity of feels like a phrase that could be inserted into almost every one of those different examples.

Robert Mason [00:22:29]:
Correct.

Vision Battlesword [00:22:30]:
That's interesting. Belief in the integrity of. Of course, we push the problem one back level back one level to. What does the word integrity mean? But. Okay, I think we're getting somewhere. And I'm noticing right now that. Well, I'm curious right now if there is some sort of a kind of a positive negative polarity to trust or sort of an optimism, pessimism, glass half full, glass half empty. In other words, what I'm saying is, is it true that for some people or in some situations that trust has to be built, meaning we start from a zero or a negative trust and then only acquire trust.

Vision Battlesword [00:23:23]:
I know I'm using the word acquire in a loose way right now through life experience versus are there some people, or sometimes situations when we start out with an implicit trust and then only that trust only erodes or is removed through lived experience? Does it make sense what I'm saying?

Robert Mason [00:23:45]:
It does, but it's taking me back to my comment about levels or layers of trust. Since I now have trusts and banking on the mind. I would have inherently trust my banker if I had money to manage said money based on what I know of his personal background. The thought that wherever he or she is working has done a background check and has trained this person properly. It would take more time and knowledge before I let my banker watch my kids, which is a very different sort of more intimate trust to me.

Vision Battlesword [00:24:33]:
Interesting. Is that a level, or is that just a context, an expansion of. But also, would you trust your kids with your money? You see what I mean?

Robert Mason [00:24:47]:
Sure.

Vision Battlesword [00:24:48]:
Is it more, is it less of. I mean, I'm sure there are some levels that that seems. I think it seems to me that most people would agree with that, but also it's different domains.

Robert Mason [00:25:02]:
Yeah, absolutely.

Vision Battlesword [00:25:03]:
Of trust. I trust you in this situation, but not in this situation per se. Or also, I may trust you in both of these situations, but at different levels.

Robert Mason [00:25:14]:
Sure. I come back to the word mastery, and again, knowledge of. I expect that a banker has mastered the art of handling money, investing money, even down to just using the systems when you make a deposit to make sure that it gets into your account.

Vision Battlesword [00:25:38]:
So I feel like you're proving my point. My point being that there are different, if not types, then maybe we could call them categories of trust. I'm noticing in our conversation as we're exploring this, there's at least like four different things that are coming up for me. Or maybe it's not four. Maybe there's two of them that are really the same, or one includes the other. But what I'm coming up with is intentions. That is good faith. I trust in your good faith, which is to say your intentions are pure, are not malicious, are in integrity.

Vision Battlesword [00:26:19]:
I trust your competence, your mastery, your skillset, which is contextual. I guess all of these things are contextual, and there can be levels to each one of them, but they're different, right? I may think you intend to do a good job, but I don't trust that you will do a good job per se. If I don't trust your confidence. Competence, yeah.

Robert Mason [00:26:41]:
I think they can each be isolated.

Vision Battlesword [00:26:43]:
And then there's reliability, which is different. I may believe in your sincerity, I may believe that you have the ability to accomplish whatever it is, but that you may not actually follow through with it. And also that reliability extends to non personal, you know, I trust the reliability or integrity of a table to support my coffee cup or lamp or the chair to be reliable. Yeah, I guess the fourth one that's coming up for me, or, excuse me, that was only two. Right. We got intentions. No, that's three. Intentions, competence, reliability.

Vision Battlesword [00:27:29]:
And then honesty is coming up for me as a fourth category. Is that a different thing than good faith, do you think? Can I trust that you have good intentions but not that you will be honest with me, or is that inclusive? Like, to be non deceptive is a requirement of good faith, in your opinion?

Robert Mason [00:27:57]:
I feel like that would be a requirement of good faith.

Vision Battlesword [00:28:01]:
Okay, so maybe we've got three things. We've got essentially intentions, competence, and reliability. These are three different types of trust.

Robert Mason [00:28:12]:
I'll go with that. I think. Yeah, they certainly all play into this specific definition.

Vision Battlesword [00:28:16]:
Is it. Can we summarize trust by saying trust is actually to take something on faith?

Robert Mason [00:28:25]:
I believe absolutely you can.

Vision Battlesword [00:28:27]:
Where faith is essentially, when we say faith, what we mean is to believe in something.

Robert Mason [00:28:37]:
The ability to believe in one's ability to believe in one's communication, to believe in one's integrity.

Vision Battlesword [00:28:47]:
Right.

Robert Mason [00:28:47]:
Yeah, I think broadly that's without.

Vision Battlesword [00:28:49]:
There's some piece of this that has to do with, when we talk about faith, it seems to have something to do with not verifying or not requiring evidence. Is that right? Like to say I have faith means I take it as given.

Robert Mason [00:29:06]:
Sure.

Vision Battlesword [00:29:08]:
I take it as given that you are sincere. I take it as given that you are reliable, that you will follow through, or that you have the skill set to accomplish whatever.

Robert Mason [00:29:22]:
To some degree, I would say that trust is, at least in part in the present moment, being able to rely on some future occurrence.

Vision Battlesword [00:29:39]:
Predictability.

Robert Mason [00:29:40]:
Predictability.

Vision Battlesword [00:29:41]:
Interesting. Yeah.

Robert Mason [00:29:43]:
And since it's in the future, absolutely. There's unverifiable actions that you are counting on occurring.

Vision Battlesword [00:30:02]:
We're learning a lot today.

Robert Mason [00:30:03]:
Yeah. This is such a mastery of technical skills. I will definitely trust that after today we know how to use this equipment. This is more competently and reliably.

Vision Battlesword [00:30:17]:
This is Johnny's first podcast. Hilarious, every single thing you can imagine. This is great, though. Okay. I think we're getting somewhere. I feel like we're getting somewhere important and helpful. Okay. So to trust means to have faith in the future, to believe that you can.

Robert Mason [00:30:47]:
Outcome.

Vision Battlesword [00:30:48]:
Correct. To believe in a prediction of a future outcome, whatever that outcome may be, whether that outcome is that you will treat me well, that you will tell me the truth as you understand it, that you will.

Robert Mason [00:31:03]:
Is it dangerous to replace prediction with the expectation of a future outcome? An expectation that communication is going to be accurate and reliable.

Vision Battlesword [00:31:14]:
I think those two words certainly mean different things, but I'm not sure that there's an important distinction in our conversation.

Robert Mason [00:31:23]:
Okay. But, yeah, I respect that.

Vision Battlesword [00:31:25]:
Yeah. I think the essence of what we're getting at doesn't rely on that word prediction or expectation. But it seems to me that there is an essence that we've uncovered here which has to do with prediction or expectation. Yeah. I can't come up with a third word that encapsulates in both. But in general. Yeah. In general, it seems like what we're getting at is confidence.

Vision Battlesword [00:31:52]:
That brings up another phrase, which is full faith and confidence.

Robert Mason [00:31:57]:
Okay.

Vision Battlesword [00:31:58]:
Which I think we use sometimes as a stand in for the simpler word trust. Don't you think?

Robert Mason [00:32:05]:
Yes. Yeah, I would agree with that.

Vision Battlesword [00:32:08]:
So I think that's interesting, those two words put together. I have faith and confidence and, yeah.

Robert Mason [00:32:16]:
Something or someone. Absolutely.

Vision Battlesword [00:32:19]:
It does have to do with your expectations of the future. I mean, that's why it's important. That's why trust is important, because it has to do with your expectations of the future.

Robert Mason [00:32:27]:
Well, and bringing it around to, if I can insert truth back into it.

Vision Battlesword [00:32:35]:
I knew you would.

Robert Mason [00:32:38]:
Your question about personal truth versus universal truth expectation implies to me a greater deal of subjectivity versus what? Prediction maybe, than prediction.

Vision Battlesword [00:32:52]:
How so?

Robert Mason [00:32:54]:
Expectation seems more personal. And I would say that trust is also a very personal issue. And so I kind of like the tie there. Prediction almost makes it sound like statistics and probability.

Vision Battlesword [00:33:08]:
Like it's something that could be measured.

Robert Mason [00:33:10]:
Yes.

Vision Battlesword [00:33:11]:
Or validated. More like an expectation is more in the eye of the beholder in terms of whether you're satisfied, whether your expectations are satisfied or not, versus. I predict that it will rain at 03:00 today, and it either does or it doesn't.

Robert Mason [00:33:27]:
Sure.

Vision Battlesword [00:33:28]:
Okay. Well, do you feel like we've got a handle on the basic question of what trust is enough to move forward with? How do we acquire it?

Robert Mason [00:33:42]:
I feel like we're in pretty good agreement on what trust looks like as a definition.

Vision Battlesword [00:33:51]:
Thank you for that. There's something else that I've been noticing as we've been having this conversation, which is that maybe there's like a positive and a negative polarity to trust. Or, um, how do you mean? Like a. Like an optimism pessimism binary, or like a glass half full, glass half empty kind of situation where in some situations, do we start out with, like, a zero or negative trust with someone or something and then have to build up to an actual sense of any level of trust, versus in other situations, do we start with an implicit trust? And it's only through experience, based on.

Robert Mason [00:34:31]:
Experience, it might get whittled away a.

Vision Battlesword [00:34:32]:
Little bit, that that trust might be eroded or subtracted or removed in some way. Does that, do you think that's true?

Robert Mason [00:34:40]:
True, absolutely. I would say it's gonna be largely situational. What comes to mind is, like, a used car salesman, they're always, the socially accepted viewpoint is they're gonna tell you anything. They want to move a car off the lot. And to some degree, it takes conversation and time and feeling a person out. If you don't know anything about cars to be able to determine the reliability of an automobile independently, you're gonna be looking for some sort of trust factor before you drive off the lot in that vehicle. And so there, I would say just, you know, because of the way used car salesmen are referenced in pop culture even and in society there, you're starting at square zero and looking or even negative. Or even negative.

Robert Mason [00:35:42]:
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. You almost walk into that situation with a negative trust factor.

Vision Battlesword [00:35:49]:
Yeah. And that's because of the belief system.

Robert Mason [00:35:54]:
Absolutely.

Vision Battlesword [00:35:55]:
That we're taught, essentially, yeah, 100%. What about for you, when you meet someone new, not in a specific context, like a used car salesman, or in any other situation where there's some sort of societal meme that gives you an automatic calibration around trust, but just any new random person that you meet for the first time. Where are you on the trust spectrum? Do you implicitly trust people until they give you a reason not to trust them, or do you implicitly distrust people until you've built up enough lived experience with them to have that level of understanding, or do you start at a zero point?

Robert Mason [00:36:44]:
I would say that I'm kind of on the optimistic side of that scale, and I implicitly give everyone at least some certain level of trust. And maybe it's just in a cursory way, but until they prove otherwise, I like to think that people intend to do what they say.

Vision Battlesword [00:37:07]:
So you trust people's intentions implicitly. You trust a person you meet randomly. You know, nothing else about them, no reputation, you know, no recommendation, nothing at all. You assume their good faith.

Robert Mason [00:37:24]:
Yeah, that's a good point. Maybe this comes back into the levels conversation a little bit because, yes, I would trust their intentions and that they intend to follow through on their word that they are a trustworthy person. However, in the same breath, I'm realizing that if they say something totally outlandish, I'm not just gonna buy into it, I'm gonna pull out my phone and start to Google. So, yeah, there's a different. There's a. There's a varied level of trust based on that interaction.

Vision Battlesword [00:37:59]:
Mm mm. And how much experience you have with them.

Robert Mason [00:38:03]:
Yes, correct. Yeah, I'm sorry, I thought we were using the new, new person on the street. Somebody don't know. Yeah, absolutely.

Vision Battlesword [00:38:10]:
No, we are. Yeah. I'm just, I'm just filling in.

Robert Mason [00:38:13]:
Sure, yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:38:13]:
Context. And what about their reliability? If you meet someone fresh, brand new, what's your opinion or what's your assumption about their reliability?

Robert Mason [00:38:27]:
I think it would err more on the side of intention that if they're telling me they're going to do something, that they are reliable to do.

Vision Battlesword [00:38:35]:
So you assume reliability until proven otherwise correct and then same thing with competence.

Robert Mason [00:38:42]:
Competence, yes. I tend to assume that people know their own skillset and know what they can and cannot do. And if. And maybe this is just the way that I live my own life, but if I tell somebody I'm going to try and do something that I don't have a skill set in, I will generally give a disclaimer and say, look, I'm going to do my best. And I would expect that they trust that, especially knowing that I'm essentially telling them, I don't know how competent I am at getting this done. And I expect similar courtesy from most people that I meet.

Vision Battlesword [00:39:25]:
But do you assume a certain level of general competence from everyone?

Robert Mason [00:39:30]:
Sure. I mean, just like I assume in communication that most of our communication is going to go smooth and steady, that we have bought into the same vocabulary or have the same understanding of words. So, yeah, there's a general trust and competency in people's ability to communicate.

Vision Battlesword [00:39:56]:
Is that trust situational? Suppose that you're walking down a dark alley at night and a couple of potentially fine but rough looking gentlemen threatening. I don't know about threatening, but just, you know, some, just interesting looking characters of some sort, you know, step out from behind a doorway in the middle of the dark alley. What's your automatic trust level in that situation with new people you've just meth?

Robert Mason [00:40:26]:
It's probably going to vary. Yeah, absolutely.

Vision Battlesword [00:40:30]:
What are the cues or signals that you pick up from people or the environment that tell you or your intuition whether or not someone is trustworthy.

Robert Mason [00:40:45]:
You know, I mean, I guess in that particular situation, it would be a number of different variables. The environment that this encounter occurs in, based on what sort of trust I may or may not be putting in them, their ability to take care of themselves. If there's a certain clear level of self respect, I'm probably going to have a little bit more reliance on what they might say, including, you know, whether or not they're hanging out in dark alleys at night. That's certainly more environmental, and it tells me something about the choices they make in their own life. And if I find that if, to me, somebody comes off as making questionable choices in their own life, it's certainly going to decrease the amount of trust that I inherently put in them.

Vision Battlesword [00:41:54]:
But you're reading a lot into a very little bit of information there.

Robert Mason [00:41:59]:
Absolutely, yes, absolutely.

Vision Battlesword [00:42:01]:
Cause somebody happens to be in the same dark alley as you at the same time of night, dressed in a particular way or looking any particular way, you don't really know their story of how they got there. This is absolutely in that state, frankly. You're there, too.

Robert Mason [00:42:19]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:42:19]:
Looking, however, as you look. So it's interesting to think of how we, and I'm not. I'm not challenging you on this because I think we all do this, and I'm sure I do this, just it's interesting to think about how much information we add or populate into a very thin set of sense data to decide what level of trust we have in any particular situation or person, given those environmental cues.

Robert Mason [00:42:49]:
Well, and this comes back to Juan's personal background and the narrative that they build for themselves in their head. I don't hang out in a lot of dark alleys, but I do have certain preconceptions about people who do, I guess. And so based on my background, my instant trust factor is probably going to be lower than maybe somebody who spends a lot of time in dark alleys and knows people that do the same.

Vision Battlesword [00:43:20]:
Yeah, fair enough. For me, I feel that I do pick up a lot of cues that my brain notices and feeds to me as intuitions or signals. Somatic, you know, feelings in my body, senses, just thoughts that pop into my head. Pattern recognition, I guess, we call all of that intuition. Yeah, especially for me. Facial expressions mean a lot for me. I notice when people are talking to me and the kind of certain facial expressions that they make when they're saying certain things that for some reason signal to me. Deception.

Robert Mason [00:44:07]:
Yeah, I understand that. What is it they say that verbal communication is really only like 15% of the message and the other 85% of a message gets lost if you're communicating by phone or by text, because you can't hear intonation in a voice. You can't see the micro expressions on somebody's face. Yeah, I think that's an important factor.

Vision Battlesword [00:44:35]:
That tells me a lot about how much I trust people, or rather those signals. I use those signals a lot to decide how much to trust people. And sometimes it's. Sometimes I think they're false positives, sure. But in general, I believe, my belief is that those signals, those intuitions have served me very, very well in my life in terms of not falling victim to scams or getting taken advantage of or serving as early warnings to a relationship. That's not healthy in some way.

Robert Mason [00:45:16]:
Absolutely. But again, that's all going to be subjective based on your personal life experiences versus somebody else's who might be in that same situation. And maybe they are not as clued in to micro expressions or they haven't been in a bad situation before.

Vision Battlesword [00:45:34]:
Okay, so we've kind of touched on both sides of this a little bit. You brought up the example of the car salesman example, and not to be derogatory to car salesmen in general, but there is, of course, kind of a meme around salespeople in general, that maybe you can assume something about their intentions, that, not to say that they're acting in bad faith per se, but that they're certainly acting in a way that is not always to your benefit, and so that affects your automatic trust. And then we've also explored a little bit about you in particular and your sense of sort of having an automatic trust or assumption of trust in people when you first meet them, environment and circumstances and situations having an impact on that. But that in general, you assume people's good faith, you assume their competence, you assume their reliability until given reason to doubt that. But I'm curious, well, how do you, how do you build trust with someone? So we've talked about there being levels of trust, right? So when you meet someone for the first time, you may trust them to a certain point.

Robert Mason [00:46:48]:
Absolutely.

Vision Battlesword [00:46:49]:
You may trust that. Okay, whatever this person's telling me right now, I don't automatically suspect that it might not be honest, or I don't automatically suspect that they might be out to harm me or something like that. I have trust in this person up to that level. But you wouldn't necessarily immediately put them put your child in their care or your money, for that matter. So there's like, levels to this. So how do you build trust with someone?

Robert Mason [00:47:17]:
I think there's a function of time since. Since we previously talked about trust being about future occurrences, I think there's a function of time and past proof of reliability. Accountability. What does that proof and integrity, what.

Vision Battlesword [00:47:36]:
Does that proof look like? People saying they'll do something and then following through with that.

Robert Mason [00:47:41]:
Yeah, exactly.

Vision Battlesword [00:47:42]:
So you sort of build up a repository of experiences that validate or demonstrate whatever that is. Reliability, for example.

Robert Mason [00:47:53]:
Yeah, I think that's exactly how it gets done.

Vision Battlesword [00:47:55]:
How do you build up a trust in someone's faith?

Robert Mason [00:47:59]:
A trust in someone's faith, by which.

Vision Battlesword [00:48:02]:
I mean their good intentions. Sincerity there. Good faith.

Robert Mason [00:48:09]:
I think there's a level of knowledge about a person that comes into play there. Again, if past trusting situations have come out favorably, then I think there's definitely an impetus to build on that trust and add to the level of trust.

Vision Battlesword [00:48:36]:
What's a trusting situation?

Robert Mason [00:48:38]:
I mean, any. I guess any situation where somebody tells you they're gonna do something and or gives you information that proves to be accurate or reliable would be a trusting situation.

Vision Battlesword [00:48:54]:
Okay. I thought you were gonna say something about vulnerability, like when you put yourself.

Robert Mason [00:49:01]:
In to a vulnerable circumstance.

Vision Battlesword [00:49:05]:
Yeah. Vulnerable relationship.

Robert Mason [00:49:07]:
And they don't take advantage of that circumstance.

Vision Battlesword [00:49:12]:
Yeah. Or provide support.

Robert Mason [00:49:15]:
Yeah, absolutely.

Vision Battlesword [00:49:16]:
So. But I think what I'm noticing is that the two examples you gave seem to be about reliability and honesty. I trust that this or I have experienced situations where this person has followed through on what they said they were going to do. I have experienced situations where this person's information that they gave me was accurate, and then I'm pivoting to intentions, which, of course, is what is more important to me.

Robert Mason [00:49:45]:
That's been a focus. Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:49:46]:
Yeah. It's very interesting how we're just noticing our kind of preferences or biases around the word, the sense of importance, the levels of importance for each of us around these different areas. So to me, that's what proves trust, or that's a big important way that people prove trust, is by how they act in positions of power.

Robert Mason [00:50:13]:
Sure.

Vision Battlesword [00:50:14]:
Or opportunity.

Robert Mason [00:50:17]:
Yeah, I can see that. Let me ask you this. Would you show vulnerability to somebody that you didn't trust?

Vision Battlesword [00:50:26]:
I generally would not.

Robert Mason [00:50:27]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [00:50:29]:
Although. No, I suppose. I suppose I've just done that, actually, in what happened today. I suppose I would. I suppose I do sometimes show vulnerability as a way of actually creating trust.

Robert Mason [00:50:50]:
I can see that, absolutely.

Vision Battlesword [00:50:52]:
You know, just to recap what we were talking about a moment ago. You know, I was in a situation. I am. I am in a situation where I am in a situation of vulnerability, actually in this moment with a service provider, someone who I hired to do a job for me, and the job did not work out well. And yet, according to the terms and conditions of, you know, the way that. The way that this person was hired, they could bill me for a lot of time spent. Although the job was not completed, in fact, the job is a train wreck ultimately. And, you know, there's different ways that I could approach that because, you know, this is a person that I don't know that I just met.

Vision Battlesword [00:51:37]:
We're interacting through a job site, and, you know, I could demand to not have to pay for anything. I could. There's all sorts of remedies that perhaps I could pursue. But instead, what I chose to do was to put my trust in this person's good faith and said, you know, I trust you to look into your heart and bill me what you really think is fair for what's happened here today. And that is a position of vulnerability. And that is an example of me choosing to trust in that position. Meaning. Sorry, putting myself into a position of vulnerability with someone that I actually have no reason to trust through experience.

Vision Battlesword [00:52:28]:
Right.

Robert Mason [00:52:29]:
So I do like this concept of vulnerability. Perhaps arguably, to build trust, you have to test a relationship with someone or something by opening up a small window of vulnerability to see how they or this item responds.

Vision Battlesword [00:52:56]:
Yeah.

Robert Mason [00:52:57]:
And meeting your requirements in that open, vulnerable space inherently increases the level of trust.

Vision Battlesword [00:53:11]:
Right. Right. It's like, I have a donut, and I really like my delicious donut, and I'm just gonna put this doughnut here on the table between the two of us. And, oh, now I'm gonna step out of the room for a moment and see if your donut is still there when you get back. Not that people do this, maybe they do, but not that necessarily there would be any sort of, like, that. People's testing of each other's trust, is that calculated? But I think that is what we do in an intuitive way or in a subconscious way.

Robert Mason [00:53:51]:
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, arguably, any transactional situation, you, especially with a service provider, you are, to some degree, opening up your vulnerability. You're letting this person come into your home or office space or wherever to provide a service. And as a new service provider, they are untested. And so you have a certain amount of faith or belief that they are going to be able to get the job done with some competence. And if that job is not completed in the desired manner, your faith going forward, your trust in that provider is decreased.

Vision Battlesword [00:54:48]:
Mm hmm. Yeah, it really keeps coming back. To trust is a belief or a level of confidence in the predictability of an outcome. In a way, that's. That's. That almost feels like the root of all of these different kinds of trust anyway.

Robert Mason [00:55:09]:
Yeah, I agree.

Vision Battlesword [00:55:12]:
Are there certain kinds of trust that are harder to repair than others, harder to prepare? Sorry? I said repair.

Robert Mason [00:55:22]:
Oh, repair. Yes, almost certainly. I think it would probably depend on the relative level of intimacy that you have with person or thing and how vulnerable you have been with them in the past. And if there's repair necessary, then it can be assumed that they have done something to break trust in the past. And so that vulnerability gets kind of reset to a lower level until such time as it can be proven that this person is trustworthy. Again, by not taking advantage or doing something that breaks that expectation or predictability.

Vision Battlesword [00:56:27]:
Seems like there could be a catch 22 at some point where if you've lost enough trust that you don't feel safe.

Robert Mason [00:56:35]:
Absolutely.

Vision Battlesword [00:56:36]:
To be vulnerable, then there's no opportunity for a person to create a life experience that demonstrates trustworthiness in that area.

Robert Mason [00:56:48]:
I think it would depend on the circumstances, but yes, absolutely. And again, that's going to be subjective to both people in that situation and their own personal history, their own expectations of a situation, traumas that they've experienced in the past, whatever those look like.

Vision Battlesword [00:57:11]:
It seems to me that at some level, trust becomes a choice. It's a choice that you make. You've got whatever life experience. You've got whatever cultural programming or memes stories, the teaching of your parents, mentors, or wherever you've learned, learned lessons from outside of your own experience. But then all of that information collectively informs your belief system about your level of confidence or assuredness or expectation of what level of trust is warranted. But then in the context of that information, you still have to decide.

Robert Mason [00:57:58]:
Yeah, that's true.

Vision Battlesword [00:57:59]:
Will I trust right now? How much?

Robert Mason [00:58:03]:
So, a word that's coming up for me, as you say, that is awareness, and maybe it goes back to conscious thought versus going with your gut or your intuition. And I think in the active conscious mind, yes, choice is available, but it requires some level of awareness that that choice can be made.

Vision Battlesword [00:58:31]:
Well, I would argue that a choice is going to be made whether you're aware of it or not. Sure, something's making a choice.

Robert Mason [00:58:39]:
That's fair. That's fair.

Vision Battlesword [00:58:41]:
But I like that you brought up sense data as a part of that information landscape within the context within which that choice gets made.

Robert Mason [00:58:51]:
Sure. Well, some choices are very reactive, you know, like it's you without, without thinking through. I mean everything is a choice all the time.

Vision Battlesword [00:59:02]:
Or maybe reflexive.

Robert Mason [00:59:03]:
Sure, reflexive, yeah, yeah, that's, yeah. Thank you. That's a better word.

Vision Battlesword [00:59:08]:
So anyway, but the point I was kind of getting on there is that's really the only way out of the catch 22. It seems to me if you're in a situation where okay, let's say I have lived experience or whatever information, whatever the source of that information is, which could be intuitive, which could be subliminal, could be somatic or, you know, logical, I have some reason not to trust. I have good reason not to trust, but I want to build trust again. So at some point I've got to flip that switch manually to the on position, so to speak, right. And say, okay, I will choose to trust.

Robert Mason [00:59:47]:
It is a choice to open up more vulnerability, to give the opportunity to build trust.

Vision Battlesword [00:59:55]:
Trust is inherently a state of vulnerability, isn't it?

Robert Mason [00:59:59]:
Yes, I think it is. Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:00:01]:
That's interesting.

Robert Mason [01:00:01]:
Just going to the expectations. Yeah. You open up vulnerability with the expectations of something or some one behaving a certain way and yeah, if it doesn't happen, then you feel slighted, you lose trust in that situation.

Vision Battlesword [01:00:17]:
But yeah, absolutely you're gonna be harmed in some way.

Robert Mason [01:00:21]:
Sure.

Vision Battlesword [01:00:22]:
If your trust is broken.

Robert Mason [01:00:23]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:00:26]:
Hmm. So it really is something you can do consciously, it seems to me.

Robert Mason [01:00:34]:
I would think so, yeah, I believe so.

Vision Battlesword [01:00:37]:
You can choose, you know, you can have a conscious intention, you can have a relationship, you can have a conversation and then you can create a scenario within which trust can be built with someone or something.

Robert Mason [01:00:51]:
Yes. Or not. If you have that awareness and choose to do so. Correct.

Vision Battlesword [01:00:59]:
For me, I know that there's one type of trust that is very hard for me to repair and rebuild and that has to do with honesty. I don't know why, but it seems to me that there's something different in character about that. I don't know why, but like reliability. I've had ten experiences with you and in six of them you've followed through and in four of them you've dropped the ball in some way. But for some reason it's like, okay, you dropped the ball a couple of times, but I'll give you another. I trust you to try again and try harder and do better or whatever.

Robert Mason [01:01:50]:
Sure. I think something like competence is easy to overcome because that can be learned.

Vision Battlesword [01:01:55]:
And that can be demonstrated.

Robert Mason [01:01:56]:
And it can be demonstrated. Absolutely.

Vision Battlesword [01:01:58]:
It's like, hey, look, I know I didn't have that skillset previously, but look, here's my certification, or here's my list of references or.

Robert Mason [01:02:10]:
Absolutely. Yeah, you're right. It's more demonstrable, for sure, versus something like, honesty is a little bit more character related as to morals and ethics, and that's more the view of a core human. What is in their heart versus what is in their head and what can they do with their hands. And so it is. I think it requires. Yeah. More intention in opening yourself up to vulnerability.

Robert Mason [01:02:48]:
When something like that has been broken, when trust has been broken based on honesty, it's also.

Vision Battlesword [01:02:57]:
There's something. It's almost a trap in itself, because if someone has been dishonest and either that dishonesty has been discovered or they've acknowledged it or admitted to it and then recommits to honesty, there's like a trap there. Right. Because all you have to go on is that person's word, right?

Robert Mason [01:03:24]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:03:24]:
It's like, I promise I'm not lying anymore. It's like, okay, yeah, that is where.

Robert Mason [01:03:31]:
It's a pretty serious catch 22.

Vision Battlesword [01:03:33]:
Where do you go from here? It's a tough one. It's a tough one. But, gosh, I mean, is there anyone who hasn't been dishonest in some way in their life? I mean, what I'm trying to say is it seems like this experience is universal. Everyone's been on both sides of this.

Robert Mason [01:03:54]:
Oh, no question.

Vision Battlesword [01:03:55]:
You know what I mean?

Robert Mason [01:03:56]:
Yes, I would say arguably at some point in their lives, always.

Vision Battlesword [01:04:00]:
So it's like, you got to have some level of empathy. If someone's looking you in the eye and saying like, no, I acknowledge that I have been dishonest in the past and I am not now. You have to have some empathy because she was on the other foot.

Robert Mason [01:04:15]:
I mean, arguably, you don't have to. Nobody has to do anything. Right? But you're right, it's always a subjective issue. And if you make the choice to rebuild trust with somebody, then, yes, having a level of empathy to understand the circumstances around which trust was broken would certainly be a big first step in doing that. And maybe that's the first sign of vulnerability, is just having that empathy and being willing to consider somebody else's circumstances even though they conflict with your own life experiences to date.

Vision Battlesword [01:05:08]:
I'm not saying that if somebody's lied to you and then tells you that they're not lying now, that you have to believe them. I'm not saying that at all.

Robert Mason [01:05:15]:
Sure.

Vision Battlesword [01:05:16]:
I'm just saying that given that, I feel, my sense is that to some degree, this is an experience that we all share of having at some point engaged in deception and perhaps having a change of heart and wanting to recommit to honesty, or at least knowing that you're telling the truth as you understand it in some specific situation that you want to be believed. Like, everyone has that. I think everyone shares that sense to some degree of, like, agreed. No, I am actually telling the truth, and I want to be believed. That's what I mean by what I'm saying is if we were to take as a universal, like, categorical imperative that if someone's ever been dishonest, that I can never trust their word again, everything would fall apart. Right.

Robert Mason [01:06:07]:
That'd be a pretty negative society.

Vision Battlesword [01:06:09]:
We got a problem, right. As a society, if we did that. So you have, like, there has to be a way to repair.

Robert Mason [01:06:16]:
Yeah, trust and honesty.

Vision Battlesword [01:06:18]:
There has to be.

Robert Mason [01:06:19]:
Yes. Agreed.

Vision Battlesword [01:06:20]:
And I don't know what that is other than you choose to do it. And at a certain point, if you know, everyone's gonna have their own threshold for how many times do we go around this merry go round before it's like, game over?

Robert Mason [01:06:35]:
Absolutely. No question forgiveness is coming to mind. Like the ability to let go of past offenses. Again, circumstantial. Some are harder to forgive than others. But I think forgiveness, and maybe that comes with the empathy, the ability to recognize that someone is capable of change and growth. And as you see other evidences in a person's life of calculated change, intentional change, I think I should say, and growth as a result, the ability to forgive and be more empathic, seems like it would be a natural occurrence.

Vision Battlesword [01:07:29]:
I love everything you just said, and I'm glad that you brought up forgiveness, because I think there's something key in that concept as it pertains to repair and rebuild of trust, because I think it's not perfect, but I think there's at least a tool in the toolbox, which is apology. I think apology is a partial way that we can begin a process of.

Robert Mason [01:07:55]:
Repairing trust, and maybe not even just apology by itself, depending on what the occurrence was that broke trust, but one's willingness to accept accountability or responsibility. With that, it's very easy to say, I'm sorry and apologize. It's very different to own one's behavior in a circumstance and apologize for it and commit to doing better in the future.

Vision Battlesword [01:08:28]:
Agreed. And for me, this brings up something, a system that I encountered, a little while ago, which is. Have you ever heard of the five apology languages?

Robert Mason [01:08:42]:
Oh, I have not. No. Sort of pretty familiar with the five love languages. But this sounds quite different.

Vision Battlesword [01:08:47]:
Exactly. Yeah. Right. It's in the same paradigm as the five love languages, but what I learned, and I won't be able to quote them all perfectly in this moment, but I'll do my best to just give a sketch. But the idea is that there's actually many different ways in which we make apology. We can make apology, and much like the love languages, we may have preferences for what makes sense to us in ways that we offer apology, and then also what's actually meaningful to us in the ways that we receive them.

Robert Mason [01:09:24]:
Okay.

Vision Battlesword [01:09:25]:
And so saying the actual words, I apologize for xyz, or I am sorry for xyz, just one of the languages, the actual verbal language itself, which can be meaningful to people. Like, you can imagine other forms of apology, but never actually saying, like, how many times have we either said or heard, like, well, you did a whole lot of cool stuff, but you never said you're sorry for x. I've been waiting to hear those words. Right. So that's meaningful to people, to actually hear the words, but then also taking accountability, just like you said, which is a different thing, you can say, oh, I'm sorry, you know, I dropped that thing on your foot. But that's different than saying, you know, I accept responsibility for, or I take ownership for carrying that thing in a way that was irresponsible.

Robert Mason [01:10:19]:
Irresponsible and led to your injury. Okay.

Vision Battlesword [01:10:22]:
And that's more meaningful to some people, or that's. That's important to some people as a part of an apology. Then there's also reparations. I dropped that thing on your foot. I may or may not have said I'm sorry. I may or may not have taken ownership for it, but I did pay for your hospital bill, you know, or I, in some way, offered an actual remedy, and I can't remember the other two off the top of my head, but you get the idea.

Robert Mason [01:10:46]:
Okay. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. There's certainly different levels of apology.

Vision Battlesword [01:10:52]:
What's super interesting to me about that, though, is much like the love languages, with that level of awareness to notice why or times when you make an apology and it doesn't seem to be effective, it doesn't seem. It's not. The repair part is not happening, or the healing part is not happening, and it may be because for you, it's really important for someone to actually speak the words sorry.

Robert Mason [01:11:20]:
Yes.

Vision Battlesword [01:11:21]:
For another person, talk is cheap. How about my broken foot?

Robert Mason [01:11:27]:
Yeah, exactly. So I know this conversation is not about apology, but bringing up the five apologies. I've always read that you can't follow a real apology with the word, but then you add some justification and it shows a lack of ownership. You know, like, I'm so sorry I did this, but you shouldn't have been doing that.

Vision Battlesword [01:11:54]:
Right.

Robert Mason [01:11:55]:
And, you know, and made this action happen. It has to be just, you know, the isolated incident. And I am sorry for my actions in that moment.

Vision Battlesword [01:12:05]:
That's exactly why I replaced the word but with and.

Robert Mason [01:12:10]:
You sly devil.

Vision Battlesword [01:12:14]:
Yeah, and I think that's a great point. Um, I'll bet that's part of the apology languages system somewhere. I haven't fully explored it. Uh, but I'm sure. And I'm sure that that has something, you know, to do with whether or not an apology is fully received.

Robert Mason [01:12:33]:
Sure.

Vision Battlesword [01:12:33]:
By someone. Because if you qualify an apology, I definitely think, yeah, it's subtractive. If not, no question nullifying. Um, anyway, yeah, so. So if trust is broken now, it doesn't necessarily mean if trust is broken, it doesn't actually necessarily mean that someone is guilty or owed an apology in the situation per se. Right. I think.

Robert Mason [01:12:59]:
I can't think of a specific example, but, yes, I imagine that's true.

Vision Battlesword [01:13:06]:
I think that two people in good faith could somehow believe, break trust with each other.

Robert Mason [01:13:11]:
Well, sure.

Vision Battlesword [01:13:12]:
Okay. So, yeah, it could be the case that, you know, hey, we've got a loss of trust here. I don't think you did anything wrong. I don't think I did anything wrong.

Robert Mason [01:13:22]:
But like, your circumstance today. Yeah, yeah. Have every reason to believe that that service provider came here with the best intent but was not capable of doing the job and doesn't necessarily owe you an apology.

Vision Battlesword [01:13:41]:
Right.

Robert Mason [01:13:43]:
But tried to get away from that one, but I think it just works. Well, you know, you showed a little bit more vulnerability and said, look, I'm out because of this situation and would appreciate your respect of that fact as you're calculating the bill.

Vision Battlesword [01:14:08]:
Yeah, that's a great example. You're right, because I think a service provider came as prepared as they could be and not incompetent and did their best, but it didn't work out to.

Robert Mason [01:14:23]:
Your expectations or to anyone's expectations or to your predicted outcome.

Vision Battlesword [01:14:30]:
Yeah, it didn't work out. And, yeah, there has been a loss of trust regardless. There's no way around that there's been a loss of trust, even though I don't require request or, you know, expect an apology for it, because I don't think anyone did anything, quote unquote, wrong. No one is guilty.

Robert Mason [01:14:48]:
Yeah. Okay. That's a great example.

Vision Battlesword [01:14:50]:
Exactly. But then there can also be those other cases where an apology could be helpful.

Robert Mason [01:14:57]:
No question.

Vision Battlesword [01:14:58]:
To rebuilding trust. No question. How far does that go, do you think?

Robert Mason [01:15:04]:
How far does the apology go?

Vision Battlesword [01:15:05]:
Yeah.

Robert Mason [01:15:07]:
If it is a sincere apology, not followed by a but or a justification, I think it's going to depend on the person receiving the apology, how sincere they. They believe the apology is, and whether or not they have enough awareness to consciously decide whether or not they want to open up vulnerability to build trust again.

Vision Battlesword [01:15:43]:
Oh, I just remembered a fourth apology language.

Robert Mason [01:15:47]:
Yeah. Hit me. Which is, Lord knows I could use them all in my life, which is.

Vision Battlesword [01:15:54]:
And this is how I'm going to take steps for that not to happen in the future.

Robert Mason [01:15:59]:
Okay, excellent. Okay.

Vision Battlesword [01:16:00]:
Yeah. I don't remember. There's a more succinct way of saying that, but you get the idea.

Robert Mason [01:16:04]:
Sure.

Vision Battlesword [01:16:05]:
And that I thought of that in this moment because of what you were just saying, that I think can also be part of rebuilding trust, to have an expectation of change. Right.

Robert Mason [01:16:18]:
Yes. Well, I guess back to what we were saying earlier about somebody's ability to intentionally make those changes and show growth, which does take some time, admittedly. But I feel like when somebody sets that intention and executes according to it, the signs are usually there pretty quickly. Like the commitment to following through on that intention is quickly evident in many cases.

Vision Battlesword [01:16:58]:
Yeah. So it seems like there's two different states or levels to that, which is one would just be expressing the intention to change the. Which could be sufficient for some people, and then the next level could be actually demonstrating change in some way.

Robert Mason [01:17:16]:
Absolutely. Yeah. Good distinction.

Vision Battlesword [01:17:18]:
Hmm. Well, what if we try to. There might be more to all of this, but what if we try to put these pieces together, what we have here right now, into what do you think is maximally effective or maximally impactful or most likely to succeed version of how do we rebuild trust that's been lost?

Robert Mason [01:17:43]:
I think the last point in your. The fourth apology, and if you think of the fifth, I'm dying to hear it, because I'm sure I'm gonna need that one in my life, too.

Vision Battlesword [01:17:52]:
I'm really hopeful it's gonna pop in before the end of it. Keep going.

Robert Mason [01:17:55]:
But I think that fourth point that you made the apology, and maybe it's not even like a verbal apology, as with your service provider, but certainly the intention to change, to remedy whatever the flaw is whether it's character or physical or circumstantial, but setting the intention to remedy that situation and then showing follow through on it is definitely going to be the one that gets my attention above others. Going back to the service provider today, if he called tomorrow with a solution and said, let me come and fix this situation, I feel like, tell me if I'm wrong. But when you need that service again in the future, because they've shown that integrity and their moral and ethical compass and want to make the situation right, you would probably consider using them again.

Vision Battlesword [01:19:16]:
Yeah.

Robert Mason [01:19:17]:
And that trust would be maybe not 100%. Like, there would still be some question as to competency versus what your expectation is. But certainly if I were in that circumstance and a service provider called up to, even if they don't apologize but just say, let's remedy this and did it right, I would definitely give them an opportunity at future work. Just knowing that is in their character.

Vision Battlesword [01:19:49]:
Definitely. Yeah. I think a lot of people feel that way. Something I've certainly learned in my various careers is you can make a lot of mistakes if you don't give up until you've made it right.

Robert Mason [01:20:06]:
Yeah.

Vision Battlesword [01:20:06]:
If you make it right in the end, that actually almost builds more trust, in a way. I've noticed then if you just. If it was just a slam dunk on the first try, you know, if it's a slam dunk on the first try, like, oh, yeah, this person's great. They do good work. They do a good job. They're trustworthy. If you go through a bunch of trials and tribulations and even mistakes and errors and prove, demonstrate your willingness to make things right, even at personal cost, that actually means more to a lot of people, I've found.

Robert Mason [01:20:45]:
Absolutely.

Vision Battlesword [01:20:45]:
Than if you just got it right on the first try.

Robert Mason [01:20:47]:
Absolutely. Yeah. It shows so much more than. Than just mere competence to get a job done.

Vision Battlesword [01:20:57]:
Yeah. Something about your character, as you say. Yeah.

Robert Mason [01:21:01]:
And that's much deeper.

Vision Battlesword [01:21:02]:
But as far as repairing or rebuilding trust is concerned, it sounds like to you one of the things that's most important is setting an intention and also following through on demonstrating change.

Robert Mason [01:21:18]:
Correct.

Vision Battlesword [01:21:19]:
That's very meaningful for you in terms of rebuilding your expectation of whatever outcome that you want to put your trust in.

Robert Mason [01:21:29]:
Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a fair statement.

Vision Battlesword [01:21:32]:
Mm hmm. For me, the thing that was coming up was understanding.

Robert Mason [01:21:39]:
Well, we haven't revisited that word in a second.

Vision Battlesword [01:21:42]:
For me, it's really important to understand what happened in a way, the context, the. It is empathy to me.

Robert Mason [01:21:52]:
Okay. I can see that.

Vision Battlesword [01:21:53]:
Yeah.

Robert Mason [01:21:54]:
You have empathy for somebody's particular circumstances.

Vision Battlesword [01:21:57]:
Yeah, that's key. That's key for me.

Robert Mason [01:22:00]:
Absolutely. I can see that in being able.

Vision Battlesword [01:22:02]:
To rebuild trust, because if I can have empathy for, and by empathy, I mean really being able to adopt or virtualize someone else's experience, that's. That's what empathy means to me. So if in a situation where trust is lost or broken, if I can put myself in that person's place and deeply understand what was true for them as that was happening, then it almost feels like it couldn't have been any other way. You know, in a certain respect, it's like, oh, well, you did what you did because you were where you were, you were thinking and feeling those things that. That you were based on your lived experience, etcetera. It's like, I probably would have done the same thing, too, in that situation, under those conditions. And so it's more understandable or it's more relatable. Actually, I think is better than understanding.

Vision Battlesword [01:22:56]:
It's more relatable or even if you don't agree, even if you might think to yourself, well, actually, even with all those same circumstances, I think I would have made different choices, been in integrity or been more honest or whatever, at least you can have compassion.

Robert Mason [01:23:15]:
Yeah, absolutely.

Vision Battlesword [01:23:17]:
And that's helpful for me. That's very helpful for me. And then following that up, I want some kind of believable intention that it won't be that way again in the future or that somehow we're going to do things differently.

Robert Mason [01:23:30]:
Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. So compassion is not a word that has come into our conversation until just now, but, yeah, I believe having compassion is certainly important to rebuilding trust. And I guess it's tied to empathy. It's the ability to perceive another person's situation and understand the influences and circumstances that build the narrative in their head and their personal character and maybe even make the choice as to whether or not that is something you want in your life going forward, to be able to start rebuilding trust or to keep somebody at arm's length and kind of write them off.

Vision Battlesword [01:24:24]:
I think that empathy leads to compassion.

Robert Mason [01:24:27]:
I'll go with that.

Vision Battlesword [01:24:28]:
Well, this has been very interesting.

Robert Mason [01:24:30]:
Yeah, what a great subject.

Vision Battlesword [01:24:32]:
And we could go on for hours and hours and hours.

Robert Mason [01:24:34]:
I wouldn't be surprised if there's going to be a part two on this one.

Vision Battlesword [01:24:37]:
Yeah, there's definitely a lot more to truth and trust. Hey, we haven't even really explored truth.

Robert Mason [01:24:43]:
I know, I know.

Vision Battlesword [01:24:44]:
Oh, boy. Yeah, that sounds like a good sequel. Is there anything else that's on your mind as it pertains to trust? Any other questions?

Robert Mason [01:24:54]:
One thing that comes up in my very opening, when you asked me what does trust mean? And we were building this definition, I used the reference to external sources. And having had the opportunity to think about this for a moment, I don't think they have to be external.

Vision Battlesword [01:25:18]:
Yeah.

Robert Mason [01:25:19]:
Thank you for bringing this up. We can definitely break trust with ourselves in lots of ways.

Vision Battlesword [01:25:26]:
For sure. For sure. Yeah. I'm so glad you brought, brought that up because that would be a huge, glaring hole in our entire conversation, which is self trust.

Robert Mason [01:25:39]:
Yeah, absolutely.

Vision Battlesword [01:25:41]:
And I, I have this conversation with people pretty regularly, actually, in the games that I play, which is, of course, what I. When I say playing games, I'm referring to facilitations that when consulting, coaching, counseling people. Self trust, of course, is a, is an obstacle for a lot of people or something that people struggle with in a lot of different ways. And so I've actually done quite a bit of interesting exploration on that topic with a lot of people, but it's so rich and, yeah, we could certainly go, we could go deep down that rabbit hole.

Robert Mason [01:26:24]:
Oh, no question.

Vision Battlesword [01:26:25]:
That might be the next sequel, actually, before we get to truth.

Robert Mason [01:26:28]:
Yeah, I think that would be a good one, actually, self trust would be a great topic.

Vision Battlesword [01:26:31]:
Well, real quickly, before we close, like what, what do you think is the difference between trusting yourself and trusting someone else or something else? Like, what's the fundamental distinction between internal trust and external trust?

Robert Mason [01:26:48]:
I think this also, this is definitely an awareness answer. I think for self trust, one has to be aware of what their personal values are like at their core, not on any sort of layer, just to bring some internal family systems into it. Not a part that feels a certain way based on some trauma that the body or mind has experienced, but who one is at their core. And when you get to the core, it's much easier to build self trust because you really understand your own personal needs and desires and can act on them. And I think that when you are in tune with yourself, your capital s self, it becomes much easier to build trust with others, just knowing what your personal values are.

Vision Battlesword [01:27:55]:
Explain capital s self.

Robert Mason [01:27:58]:
So the core of who you vision is kind of the, the soul that you're born with before you have experienced any traumas out there in the world that shift your personal perspective on life, but at your very soul, like, what is important to you? What are your goals? What do you want to do with your life? How do you want to live your life without outside influence. And when you arrive at that knowledge, it is much easier to build self trust, because prior to arriving at that knowledge, self trust is often based on who you think you are, based on the programming that you get, as you mentioned, from parents, from teachers, from religion, from society. But when you really know who you are at your core, when you arrive to your capital s self, then you can act from a place of integrity in your day to day life and build trust with yourself, knowing that you are being taken care of by your own body and mind. And that allows you then to come from a place of wholeness when interacting with others and make better choices in the viewpoint that everything in life is a choice, make the better choices that you're going to be taking, that you're going to be taking care of yourself, and thereby limit situations where you need to be vulnerable in certain ways to build trust with others. I feel like that was a really long winded answer, but I stand by it.

Vision Battlesword [01:29:57]:
All right, well, what's the lowercase as self?

Robert Mason [01:30:02]:
The self that we perceive based on those outside influences who our parents told us we needed to be, who our teachers told us what our teachers told us we should be doing. So the lower case, all the shoulds.

Vision Battlesword [01:30:21]:
Oh, so the lowercase s self is like the character that gets created.

Robert Mason [01:30:28]:
Yes.

Vision Battlesword [01:30:29]:
As the book, the story of our.

Robert Mason [01:30:32]:
Life is written based on the narrative that you write that you are buying into in your own life.

Vision Battlesword [01:30:37]:
The uppercase as self is like the witness that's reading that story.

Robert Mason [01:30:43]:
Correct?

Vision Battlesword [01:30:43]:
In a way. Okay.

Robert Mason [01:30:44]:
Correct. Yeah. That's a much easier way to put it.

Vision Battlesword [01:30:48]:
That's why there's two of us. Okay. Fascinating. I'm trying to decide what my answer to my question is. The question being, what's the distinction between internal trust and external trust? You know, in a lot of ways, recently I've been approaching it with the assumption that there is no distinction. Okay. I've been approaching it from a perspective of your relationship with yourself is just exactly like a relationship with anyone or anything else that you can. You can have agreements with yourself, you can have conversations with yourself, you can essentially treat yourself exactly as you treat anyone else.

Vision Battlesword [01:31:31]:
And it's an. It's an interesting model, it's an interesting frame, because I don't think it is the way that most people think of their relationship with their self, but in that sense, that's where you can have a. In exactly the same way that we were talking about trust. You can break your own trust.

Robert Mason [01:31:51]:
Yeah, absolutely.

Vision Battlesword [01:31:52]:
And you can then subsequently repair it or rebuild it through the different mechanisms and techniques that we were just talking about. Yeah. Making an intention to change, taking ownership, for taking responsibility for whatever led to the loss of trust in the first place, demonstrating through experience, trustworthiness and so forth. So, anyway, obviously, we opened a giant can of worms that we already set expectations to talk about some other time. But I just want to thank you very much for this conversation. This was super interesting and rich for me.

Robert Mason [01:32:28]:
Could not agree more. Yeah. Thank you so much for inviting me to your house and for letting us sit down and have this conversation. I love these deep dives with you, my friend.

Vision Battlesword [01:32:38]:
It's been a delight, first of many, and I look forward to talking with you again soon.

Robert Mason [01:32:43]:
Amen. Likewise. Love you, brother. Thank you.

Vision Battlesword [01:32:45]:
Love you, too.